Here’s the problem:
- After spending 4 years saying that our elections are secure, how do you start a serious investigation into this without sounding like whining hypocrites at best?
- Even if you prove to be 100% in the right, do you honestly think that you’re going to get people to believe it?
- Even if you prove to be 100% in the right, doesn’t that also just prove that our elections really aren’t secure and can be manipulated pathetically easily?
- The number of people needed to pull a stunt like this off would be in the thousands. Yet, not a single person has come forward and talked? Not a single election worker saying “Hey, I opened up a box of ballots to count, and all of them were just votes for Trump and nobody else.” Not a single worker tasked with tracking the shipment of these ballots reporting any anomalies? Remember. Every state went redder. You don’t think that in blue states like California or even purple states like Wisconsin, that if there were any anomalies they wouldn’t be screaming about it on social media before they were done unpacking the damn box?
- Wouldn’t this have just lead to several anomalies in the voting count in at least some cities? Bulk cramming votes by the tens or even hundreds of thousands would surely lead to the number of votes cast in some states or counties being higher than the number of registered voters.
- How do you prove that it wasn’t just a bunch of low-information Trump voters showing up just to support him, not caring about the other downballot races?
Personally, I’d rather stick with the narrative that our elections are safe and secure, and the US voters simply voted against their own interests. The best we could hope for beyond that is the GOP saying that the election was stolen in 2020, the Democrats saying it was stolen in 2024, and nobody believing our elections are secure at all heading into 2026 and 2028.
And even if you want to put all of that aside. A stunt like this would make Mission Impossible seem like Sesame Street by comparison. Think of the work it would take on a national level to pull this off with absolutely nobody talking and without a trace. Now look at the people Trump has leading the charge. What in the name of Jesus’s favorite camel makes you think that any of those fuckwits have the mental capacity to pull that off?
These claims have little to no basis in reality and should be immediately disregarded just like Trump’s claims of 2020. The fact of the matter is that we lost.
EDIT: People are saying these were digital counts that were manipulated. The argument still stands, though. For that argument to be valid, that would mean that our elections are so insecure that Trump and the brainworm crew were able to hack into voting systems nationwide, en masse, and without anybody noticing. Thousands of people would still have to be involved. There would be a digital trace showing something happened, even if we couldn’t figure out exactly what or by whom. Someone would have made a human error that would stick out like a sore thumb. Digitally or physically, you are not pulling that kind of stunt at that level without anybody noticing, particularly not those lead paint eaters.
Regarding your points:
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That would be a difficult discussion, yes, but the difference between now and then is that there are red flags that should, at the least, warrant a recount. Unlike 2020, we’re not saying it’s rigged, but rather that a recount is needed to validate and verify.
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The same way you would try to prove anything else like this, you put facts out in front of people, bring in experts, and attempt to bring the truth to light. If there was something nefarious uncovered then we present it, otherwise it shows that things are working correctly.
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Yes and no. It means that tabulation machines are manipulatable and that we need improved security there. Hand counting ballots is still secure as the red flag here is a digitally inflated count, which is what a physical recount would prove or disprove.
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You didn’t read the letter, or at least didn’t understand it. They’re not talking about fradulent physical ballots. There’s no reason for anybody to be looking at them for multiple reasons. Secondly, the letter states that swing states are the ones specifically that need to be looked at.
5/6. We know that a good portion of the population that is eligible to vote doesn’t. We also have historical data that gives us the averages for when voters only vote for the president and nothing else. That range is 2-5%. Seeing that number jump above 10% is eye catching and can be indication that something is wrong. So again, it’s not a claim that things are rigged, but a warning that the numbers indicate that they need to be looked at closer and be recounted to ensure they are correct.
Claiming out elections are secure and ignoring something like this just allows the GOP to continue to use it. If they get away with it this time and are the ones in power, how is anyone supposed to prevent them from doing it again? The whole reason were having to deal with the idea of rigged elections is because the GOP and Trump decided fuck up that system our trust and replace it with fear and lies.
On the last point, these claims do have a basis in reality looking at the data. The math shows a departure from historic norms, which calls it question how accurate the counts are. Asking for a recount is not a problem, but saying and doing nothing when it looks like something is wrong is a problem.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree, then. I think we’re both on the same side and ultimately want the same things. And I’m not saying your points are invalid. But at the same time, I don’t see any real evidence to support it, I have absolutely no reason to believe that Trump’s team of all people would have the brain capacity necessary to pull it off, and I think chasing down conspiracy theories with little tangible evidence is going to do far more harm than good.
Again, the best that we would be able to hope for is to say “Our elections are so insecure that Trump and his band of human crayon eaters was able to hack into systems nationwide without a god damned person noticing. Oh, and Kamala Harris actually won the election. Believe us!” Because you will not get any further than that with your average American voter.
The undeniable facts are this: Kamala Harris got 10+ million less voters than Joe Biden. Which means that 10+ million Biden voters stayed home. The GOP had absolutely nothing to do with that. If those 10 million democrats came out to vote, we’d have won the election in a landslide even if Trump was able to pull off that little stunt.
We lost because 10 million Democrats stayed home. What the GOP did or did not do has absolutely no impact on that fact. No investigation will change that fact.
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The tell: A historically absurd number of Trump-only bullet ballots or undervote ballots.
There are always a handful of voters who cast a vote in one race which they care about, and do not make other selections on the ballot. These are called bullet ballots. In Presidential Races since 1980, these bullet ballots rarely account for more than 1% of the total votes including in Mr. Trump’s winning 2016 election and losing 2020 election, and when they do it warrants further investigation. In 2024 in the 43 non-swing states, bullet ballots make up a nominal >1%. In the seven swing states the numbers are so high to be unbelievable, unprecedented and demanding of further investigation. Here is analysis from totals as of late Nov. 12th
Here are the unprecedented results of drop-offs in the two western swing states:
AZ - 123K+ 7.2%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to reverse the outcome.
NV - 43K+ 5.5%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to exceed recount threshold.
It is my belief these two states have illegally added votes.
For comparison, examine Trump’s 2024 results in three states which border AZ and NV. They have equally passionate Trump supporters, but have the normal levels of drop off or bullet ballots.
ID <2K 0.03% of Trump’s total.
OR <4K 0.05% of Trump’s total
UT <1K 0.01% of Trump’s total.
In the case of Idaho and Utah, Mr. Trump was a run-away winner and had no need to add votes. In the case of Oregon, Ms. Harris was a run-away winner and adding votes to Trump’s total would add risk without adding value.
The same pattern of large numbers of drop-off votes or bullet ballots exists in the totals of MI, NC, PA, WI.
123,000 Arizonans voted only for President & nobody else? That is weird.
AZ - 123K+ 7.2%+ of Trump’s total vote. Enough to reverse the outcome.
As odd as it is, you are not cramming 123,000 ballots in there without anybody noticing. It’s just not going to happen. Even spread out, that’s still thousands if not tens of thousands of ballots per district. Somebody would have noticed. Somebody would have said something. Some counties would have vote counts higher than the number of registered voters. There would be a giveaway. You don’t cram 7.2% of Trump’s total vote in a state as big as Arizona and leave no trace. That’s just impossible.
EDIT: People are saying these were digital counts that were manipulated. The argument still stands, though. For that argument to be valid, that would mean that our elections are so insecure that Trump and the brainworm crew were able to hack into voting systems nationwide, en masse, and without anybody noticing. Thousands of people would still have to be involved. There would be a digital trace showing something happened, even if we couldn’t figure out exactly what or by whom. Someone would have made a human error that would stick out like a sore thumb. Digitally or physically, you are not pulling that kind of stunt at that level without anybody noticing, particularly not those lead paint eaters.
This is us noticing.
About 2 weeks to late, for starters.
It takes this long to count stuff and get detailed information
Just kinda how it is with the size of this shit
Source?
It doesn’t say. It does also mention
Maricopa County AZ, seems to be the source of the vast majority, perhaps nearly all, of the AZ bullet ballot voters for Trump. If these ballots were introduced it would require co-conspirators working inside the tabulation center.
Which - is at least believable.
Sounds crazy on both accounts. Either a record number of people voted for only one person or the fraudsters thought, “Eh, President is the only office we care about right?” I don’t know how they track votes but another key factor could be how dispersed the votes were. If it was fraud I’m guessing they’d be sloppy and you’d see the bullet voters show up in huge chunks.
I’d think it’d be easy enough to check - take these suspect ballots and make sure the people are alive, and then see if they say they voted. Get more than 10 that say they didn’t, and we’re off to the races.
I laughed my ass off at the pathetic, baseless attempts to dispute the 2020 election, but never questioned their legal right to do so (which they failed miserably at). If suspicious Harris supporters believe they have convincing evidence of manipulation, then let their claims be examined and proven or disproven by a recount or in a court of law. Call it copium, but I’d rather check these claims out and be disappointed than pre-emptively assume they’re bullshit.
I hate to say it, but this seems like copium. I’d love to be wrong about that.
I don’t know. When Republicans tell you they are going to rig the system for years. When Republicans take action to rig the system for years. It seems like it’s pretty plausible. Now whether or not it would ultimately change the outcome. That’s a good question and no one should get their hopes up. But Democrats absolutely should be investigating this.
Same.
While i believe they would have the resources to do this technically, i think voter suppression from the right, the failures in the biden/harris whitehouse, and plane old racism/misogyny is a rather solid argument.
The lack of leaks from these absolute colanders is really hard to believe.
plain old racism/misogyny is a rather solid argument.
No, this is just another copium. Not to imply that racism/misogyny don’t exist, because they absolutely do. But that’s not why Harris lost both the electoral and popular votes by such wide margins. The DNC has endless amounts of quality data on how racist and misogynistic Americans are. If they knew that a nonwhite woman would lose then they wouldn’t have run one in the first place.
The Democrats fail because they’ve embraced grinding neoliberalism for an entire generation, because they abandoned the working class long ago. The DNC crushed Sanders—twice—because even a little social safety net, as a treat, is a bridge too far for them.
Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
Democrats would rather lose—to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump—than […] address the material conditions of the American people.
I’m seeing a lot of copium coming from people on the left/progressives, that are like, “you know what guys, we really gotta […] push the Democratic party left.” It’s not going to happen. The Democratic party will not be pushed left. They tried. We tried. It failed. Just go back in recent history, and look at how, at every chance that the Democrats or progressives tried to push the Democratic party left, they were crushed. …
They hate anyone left of center. The Democratic party is a corporate interest, billionaire elite party that only pretends to sometimes pander a little bit to the left when they want to get your votes, and even then they’re not even really trying that hard: they’ve pretty much made clear that they hate you.
Pretty much agreed. Also the mysogyny thing was part of a list and not the emphasis.
