Yes, I know that it still exist, and yes, decentralized currency which utilizes distributed, cryptographic validation is not actually a strictly bad idea, but…

Is the speculative investment scam, which crypto substantially represented, finally dead? Can we go back to buying gold bars and Pokemon cards?

I feel like it is, but I’m having a hard time putting my finger on why it lost its sheen. Maybe crypto scammers moved on to selling LLM “prompts?” Maybe the rug just got pulled enough times that everyone lost trust.

  • Ebuall@programming.dev
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    1 year ago

    Maybe people understood, that instead of freedom as advertised, crypto brings out even more oppressive forms of capitalism.

  • davehtaylor@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago
    • As an actual currency, it’s functionally useless. Even if every retailer on the planet were to accept it, the overhead for making the transaction is just a non-starter

    • Because of that, it’s entirely just funny money. Even further, since it’s entirely a virtual asset, if the power goes out, your wallet goes with it

    • The environmental impacts are horrifying. This fact alone means that it should all be eradicated. Destroying the planet for Internet funny money isn’t an acceptable proposition

    • For a decentralized currency, people sure do love centralizing under large exchanges, and the massive losses, thefts, fraud, etc. have shown that no matter how “decentralized” it’s supposed to be, it’s still susceptible to the same bullshit as any other currency

    • Its high profile association with grifters, scammers, malware, and dark web shenanigans has completely soured its image in the public mind

    • It’s entirely a speculative investment scam now. There’s no way to decouple it from that.

    • liminis@beehaw.org
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      Correct me if I’m wrong, but since ETH moved to a proof of stake model rather than proof of work (i.e. “mining”), isn’t its environmental footprint now a fraction of the wasteful behemoth it was previously?

      (Though I 100% agree given the ‘gas fees’ (transaction costs), it’s still absolutely useless as an actual currency.)

      • xenos@kbin.social
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        You’re right about the environmental footprint - proof of stake dropped the energy consumption by 99.95%

        Ether (ETH) was never intended to serve as a digital currency. it was only meant to be the fuel or incentive for computational tasks on the Ethereum network. An L2 like Optimism or Arbitrum runs on top of Ethereum and facilitates transactions that are significantly faster (tens of thousands of transactions per second), for a fraction of the cost (pennies or fractions of pennies)

        • nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev
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          Not recommended though, RPIs aren’t really suited for production, plus I think only Nimbus runs well on RPIs?

    • I have a few bitcoin that I got when it was new, and I was playing around with it; then I forgot about my coins until it exploded and made it into the public (non-tech) news. I luckily still had my wallet, and I bought a quite expensive watch with Bitcoin when it was near its price peak. The transaction was no more difficult than using Paypal. I could have bought a lot of things; at one point, I could have bought a car with it. There are many vendors who’ll accept Bitcoin even today. So, regardless of your other points, saying that it’s funny money that you can’t buy anything with is simply false. It’s worth what people will pay for it, just like the American dollar, or gold, or the artificially inflated price of blood diamonds.

      I don’t think promoting falsehoods helps any argument. If that one is obviously wrong, what about your other points? Lots of people want cryptocurrency to fail. Lots of people want to maintain the hegemony of the US dollar. Some people even have valid criticisms of proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, and the giant farming installations. It’s certainly something to discuss, as long as it’s kept to facts.

      • davehtaylor@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        The issue with retail is how long it takes for a bitcoin transaction to be confirmed. The overhead simply isn’t feasible. A vendor isn’t going to sit around an wait an hour for confirmation that payment has been received. A private seller might not care. But a company that processes millions of transactions per day isn’t going to deal with that. It has nothing to do with the belief in it and its worth.

        And yes, let me be perfectly clear: I absolutely do want cryptocurrency to fail. That’s not about being a shill for government hegemony. It’s about there being literally no inherent good in it, either in principle or in practice. From the fact that it consumes more energy than entire countries and pumps more CO2 into the atmosphere than entire major industries, to the environmental impact of increased mining for rare earths, increased manufacturing strain, and supply chain disruption due to the demand for the chips to drive the miners.

        Also I really don’t appreciate your passive aggressive way of calling me a liar

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
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          I think a lot of people just have difficulty decoupling a few separate but connected ideas like crypto being internet money, from the blockchain as a ledger, and transaction records as a means of proof.

          What people really need is a ledger for cash itself, where notes can be scanned and then structured into a transaction and popped into the blockchain where said transaction ID gets verified and printed out like an EFTPOS note.

          If that sounds like we’re going full circle it’s probably because everything becomes harder but not always necessarily better with the more you DIY.

        • Your position was clear.

          I’m not sure how else you’d prefer someone to call out untruths that you’ve posted. It’s either calling you a liar, or some version of saying you’re talking out your ass, or what not. But you’re right, that’s what I was saying. FWIW, I don’t think it’s lying the way Trump lies; I think there’s just a lot of uninformed knee-jerk reactionism. For example, you talk about processing times; have you ever heard of Lightning? It’s a crypto used a lot in Nostr and which has instant transfer times.

          My point is that I you’re arguing a point that is easily refuted, when you have other points that are reasonable and justifiable. I could argue against the other points, too; for example, I could bring up proof-of-stake crypto-currencies which do not have huge energy use, and which haveno more energy footprint than the SSL transactions that you’re using constantly, every day. But it would be a harder arguement for me to make because the original cryptocoin, Bitcoin, is proof-of-work and has had a huge eco impact.

          And I might not try to argue that unless I thought you were open to discussing the topic in good faith. Which I don’t believe you are; I think you’ve already made up your mind on the topic, and now all that’s left is evangelism.

          I do have a question, though: do you understand how blockchains work, and the what the various kinds of proofs are? Not in the “could you program it” sense, but in general, like could you describe how they work to someone over beer? Or have you just read a lot about how bad they are? How much of your opinion is based on your social media filter biases?

          • Dymonika@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            That’s exactly what I was gonna say: @davehtaylor must have no idea of the nearly-cost-free Layer 2 network.

            Additionally, how much money does it take to power banks? All the staff, the electricity, the Brinks armored cars, the accounting for all that cash, the safety deposit boxes and all of their contents and insurance… Does he think ACH transfers or, worse, checks or money orders, are free on an environmental level? How is USD with all of its nonstop-growing debt safe in any long-term way?

        • fiah@discuss.tchncs.de
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          there are decentralized currencies that work perfectly well without wasting tons of energy, although I agree that none have yet achieved the necessary scale to actually replace current centralized money systems. These currencies might find a niche that doesn’t need the capacity to handle thousands of transactions per second, or perhaps one of the many many different ways to scale these currencies that are currently being worked on will end up being good enough (they aren’t, yet)

    • The Doctor@beehaw.org
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      I’ve found that the same folks who crowed the loudest about cryptocurrencies being decentralized were working the hardest behind the scenes to build the first generation of exchanges and online wallets.

    • Sodis@feddit.de
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      Some of these points are not inherent properties of cryptos, like the environmental impact and the transaction overhead.

      • goatmeal@kbin.social
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        it’s not even just that. if you count the number of transactions across all cryptocurrencies that are confirmed by mining, they are absolutely dwarfed by the number of transactions that are not confirmed by mining. same thing with volume of money moved. the environmental complaint applies to a minority of the total activity.

        • limelight79@lemm.ee
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          And shouldn’t the environmental cost of “real” currencies be compared as well? It’s not like printing and minting all those bills and coins is zero energy. Even treating it virtually (direct deposit, etc - we rarely handle cash) has some overhead.

          I don’t have a horse in this race, but comments that are obviously trying to grind an ace are suspicious to me.

          • HER0@beehaw.org
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            On the tech side of things, the environmental impact of running traditional, centralized services is inherently lower than running any cryptocurrency off of a blockchain. To overcome the technical limitations would be to create another centralized service.

            But yeah, there are almost certainly ways that traditional currency can reduce their environmental impact, too.

    • Aetherion@feddit.de
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      Funny how people are creating bullshit by taking about things they don’t know.

      Hint: Blockchain is more than just currency and when your centralised e-mail server is taken down with all of your e-mail’s, than you will think back at people who did the switch to decentralisation.

      Another hint: Ethereum did lower its CO2 emissions by 99%, just by changing its code. Can your 100% virtual currency, parked at your favorite bank in a country like sweden, where there is no cash anymore, do the same?

  • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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    It will never die. I believe it will wax and wane over the years. Being incredibly anonymous and deregulated means it will always be a great place for the evil doers to manipulate the market and make money off of it. Because of that there will always be some people using it.

    I think one of the biggest failings of cryptocurrency in general is that people view it as a replacement for cash or debit cards when in reality with how slow and expensive the transactions are it is more of a replacement for clearing houses. When you get money sent to your bank you can use it right away because the bank trusts you and provides that service but the money isn’t truly there yet. You may have heard the phrase of “the check cleared” or something similar. It takes a long time for those processes to complete and crypto is faster than it.

    • The Doctor@beehaw.org
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      For certain values of ‘anonymous’, anyway. There are still folks who don’t think that traffic analysis applies to cryptocurrency.

      I still don’t understand why the Bitcoin community (in particular) has been so resistant to increasing the block sizes and the transaction rates. As it stands right now, the Bitcoin network can’t push even a small fraction of what the SWIFT network handles every second. The arguments on the old #bitcoin IRC channel made no sense (and got a lot of us k-lined before we even saw any replies!)

  • nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev
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    A lot of controversial comments. Here are some of my observations:

    • Not a single mention of decentralised finance/DeFi in the comments, which is a game-changer.
    • A lot of outdated information or misunderstanding of recent developments in the industry
    • A large focus on scams and crypto bros, who are the loudest but definitely not the majority
    • 0xpr03@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      undefined> DeFi

      All governments and API server owners have shown that this is a wish and not reality.

      • nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev
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        DeFi has added some real value for both project creators and users, not just for myself. I’m not talking about the ‘money making, profit driven’ side of value either, but utility, capital efficiency, flexibility, new financial primitives as well.

        All sorts of crazy innovation that you shouldn’t just hand-wave away as a scam or redundant.

    • fades@beehaw.org
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      Good points for sure.

      You mentioned recent developments, what Loopring is doing with Layer 2/3 technology has been game changing within the ethereum space. GameStop’s NFT marketplace, especially the games shines because of it.

      Semi-related, this post reminds me of a recent F1 story I came across on squabbles, where they are using w3 improve their ticketing systems to combat certain things that currently cause issues like scalping while also providing a medium for tailored ticket and fan experiences. It has actually been a long time coming, I found this article from ‘21 How Non-Fungible Tokens Are Coming To F1 which goes more in-depth with what their vision is and what they believe they can achieve.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if these kinds of applications pop up in other sports down the road if it does well for F1.

      Given all the negative press in addition to the unfortunate support from GOP fascists, from the outside looking in it must seem like it’s 90% delusional morons being taken advantage of by 10% scammer assholes.

      There are delusional morons and scammer assholes, but it’s a loud minority and does not define the technology and the assoc industry.

      • nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev
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        I tried to like Loopring, but their L2s were hardcoded circuits rather than zkEVM which the Polygon and Matterlabs team (and Starkware to a lesser extent) are pushing ahead with this year. Allowing the community of third party developers to contribute value (sound familiar Reddit?) is going to make the whole L2 space to gangbusters.

        As it stands now you can’t do much with Loopring except what the first party devs have built, which is basically a standard excahnge.

  • Wander@yiffit.net
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    Nope. I use it on a weekly basis to pay for stuff on the internet. It’s got its uses and the concept is sound. What you’re talking about is the hype train that happens ever so often.

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      I’m glad to see that paying for things is still an option. What I really hope for is that the future of crypto is all payments and the investors fuck off

      • Wander@yiffit.net
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        1 year ago

        Servers, VPN, domain names and recurring donations. Mostly donations every week. Servers and VPN on a monthly basis.

        • SaintLunatic@midwest.social
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          Thanks for the response. Aside from the fed responses lol I was wondering what people actually used it for since we can’t deny there is a lack of products you can buy with crypto. I will def start using it for donations and VPN

          • Wander@yiffit.net
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            Actually I’ve had really good success in paying for privacy services with it. I wouldn’t do it any other way, especially for things like a VPN where you don’t want the provider to have to keep your name and address due to legal requirements.

            Another great use case is sending money abroad, especially to countries where there’s other sorts of financial restrictions.

        • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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          “Did you know if you ask me if I’m a cop that I legally have to answer you truthfully if I’m a cop? So relax! What do you spend it on?”

      • Geo_bot@dataterm.digital
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        Look up crypto wallets and use the ones you can use on your local computer (don’t bank your coins in exchanges)

  • dust4ngel@beehaw.org
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    you can’t get a real discussion of crypto here because downvotes are impossible and the simps are legion

  • joelthelion@beehaw.org
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    Bitcoin is still around 30k a pop, so I wouldn’t say it’s dead yet. But I foresee a big crash in the months or years to come: the hype has passed, and the real uses of crypto are very few. It’s also not a good investment since the expected returns are 0. Once people finally realize that, I see the price falling to 1k or even less.

      • Contend6248@feddit.de
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        I was there when it hit $50 and said that the bubble has to pop soon, so at what time are we accepting crypto coins as just an alternative if you want to gamble?

    • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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      expected returns are 0

      That’s the same thing with gold though. There are other reasons to invest in something than just returns. Some folks want something to maintain its value. Bitcoin being deflationary is supposed to be a good hedge against inflation. (But it’s far to volatile to really serve that purpose in my opinion.)

      • joelthelion@beehaw.org
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        Well, gold has the added benefit that it has served this purpose for thousands of years.

        Would you really count on an extremely complex electronic currency requiring a distributed array of machines to get you through a major crisis?

        • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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          You mistake me, I’m not saying Bitcoin is better than gold. I was just pointing out that returns are not the only reason.

  • BurningnnTree@lemmy.one
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    1 year ago

    I know one crypto bro IRL. He acknowledges that it’s all just a pyramid scheme, but he enjoys it because it’s like gambling but with more strategy involved I guess.

      • tobyvin@lemmy.tobyvin.dev
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        While I think you’re right in that neither of those seem to be pyramid scheme, I disagree with the implication that they are any better (apologies if that was not the implication).

        They seem to just be creating an avenue for monotization of something that, I assume (but I could be wrong here), was previously free by nature, hence the necessity for an NFT to monetize it.

        I guess really that’s just what NFTs do, or at least their main use case. But I guess I just fundamentaly disagree with that idea.

    • The Doctor@beehaw.org
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      And because he gets a decent cut of the profits. Coming out ahead (for a while) has a way of assuaging one’s worries.

      • SoManyChoices@lemmy.sdf.org
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        Is it really though? If I were to go and buy my first ever crypto coin today would you really say the expected value is greater than 0?

        I have no doubt those who got in years ago or mine coins using other’s resources have an expected value greater than 0 but that’s not the entire market. I hope.

        • nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev
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          I guess it depends on your time-frame and your risk profile. BTC/ETH over the medium term has done much better than pretty much any other asset in the world. Altcoins didn’t even factor into my brain when I made that comment.

  • Mars@beehaw.org
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    It’s just another kind of MLM right now. It always has been. The superbowl Larry David add was the swan song for crypto mainstream appeal.

    And you are right, most of the people that were telling you to buy cryptocurrency for reasons, now are into the “prompt engineering” fad.

    Por metaverse, only the really unicorn-chasing and completely clueless about technology marketing “gurus” got into it.

  • The Doctor@beehaw.org
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    Bitcoin’s in the low $29kus region lately (up from $26kus), so it looks like it’s going to keep going. Also, big real money investors are now pretty long on cryptocurrency, so there is a vested interest in keeping it around.

    Plus, you know, folks buying stuff on the black and grey markets with it. Wish I didn’t have to mention drugs, but it’s the easiest way to keep getting insulin for folks these days in addition to the usual recreational compounds.

  • Weak hands got shaken out, and the economy is teetering on recession. When inflation stops and interest rates fall, and quantitative easing starts back up it’s gonna come roaring back. The SEC and CFTC aren’t trying to kill crypto, they are just trying to decide who’s jurisdiction it falls under. The crypto industry will benefit from regulation, it will get safer, and you’ll feel like an idiot for asking this question instead of buying while it’s cheap. Hit me up in 2025!

    • catboss@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      I am not sure if you are actually drinking the Kool-Aid or if this is some top tier shit posting. If it’s the latter, kudos to you!

      • Rumblestiltskin@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        I find it odd people who want their social media decentralised but are disgusted when money is decentralised.

        • catboss@feddit.de
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          This is a weird take and not the “gotcha” you might think it is.

          Cryptos are a scam where nobody but very few at the top of the fraud actually win. While some crypto bros might be beyond help, they are actively endangering other people by trying to sell them their snake oil and drag them down with them. And the most tragic thing is, they stop applying any form of reason before making dangerous monetary decisions. People have and will continue to lose all their savings, so I would definitely agree with you that this shit is disgusting.

          Decentralised social media on the other hand does not and can not endanger people’s lifes like that. Yes, social media has dangers in itself. But I’d wager those dangers are far less pronounced, despite having a share of wackos.

          If you are into cryptos and don’t realise it is among the worst forms of gambling on it’s best days, maybe you should take a couple of steps back and reevaluate if you actually understand everything that’s going on, including the umcanny risks: Do you actually, for real, understand how it all works on the technological side or do you just pretend to or take someone’s word for it? Do you actually make your own decisions or are those influenced by forces outside of your control (e.g. “diamond hands”, “hodl” etc.)? Do you have a concrete and detailed financial plan that incorporates the worst scenarios as well ad exit strategies or is your “investment strategy” mostly determined by chance? How is your investment secured? Could you actually and factually sue in court and win in case bad actors try to prevent you from cashing out? How exactly is anything supposed to turn a profit and who’s pocket is that magical profit supposed to come out of? Is anyone standing to make a profit from you and can you guarantee it won’t happen? How?

          Those are just a few (but not even all) considerations where cryptos usually should ring enormous alarm bells for anyone with a modicum of financial education. But not to crypto bros. To them all of this is weirdly enough just dandy and questioning anything is greatly discouraged. At some point they stop all critical thinking and just throw money into the fire, so some grifters can grift.

          I’d personally rather use the money in cash to light a real fire. At least that will provide some warmth for a hot second.

          • Rumblestiltskin@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Lol, somebody could write an opinion piece like this on decentralised social media and be just as wrong as you. Crypto is happily humming along and for some reason you are bitter that people like to use it.

            • catboss@feddit.de
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              I didn’t write my reply for you, but for the people not yet aware of the inherent dangers of an unregulated financial market such as cryptos.

              You can continue LARPing on the internet that you are some sort of mastermind investor. If that makes you happy, it is your money. I am just asking you politely to not try and sell your financial and tech illiteracy to your friends and family, only for them to inevitably lose all the money they invested trusting you.

              • Rumblestiltskin@lemmy.ca
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                If people are actually interested in decentralised technology to escape abusive corporations then your insults to cryptocurrency users and assumed bad intentions of cryptocurrency users are not very convincing arguments.

                • catboss@feddit.de
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                  Contrary to what you keep claiming like a broken record, I am very much in favour of decentralisation. I am however against the enourmous amount of shitfuckery going on in the crypto space. And all I care about is warning people.

                  If you are of the opinion that cryptos - despite all rational - somehow have a future outside of a very few fringe use cases (e.g. black market transactions), then be my guest. You are mistaken, but I am also aware that there is no convincing crypto bros.

                  In well over a decade the crypto space has caused multiple economical desasters that left a lot of people destitute. It’s kinda weird to ignore this fact, but you do you. Maybe believing harder in cryptos and doubling down will help this time. Best of luck, you will need it!

              • Schooner@lemmy.ml
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                No one is claiming to be a mastermind except you declaring a thing you don’t like as bad because of vague reasons.

                • catboss@feddit.de
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                  I am very much against scams, yes. They target vunerable people. How is that a bad thing?

          • Schooner@lemmy.ml
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            Umm social media has literally led to genocide in Myanmar leading to a flood of refugees in my country…

            Decentralised social media would be even worse because people can set up their own instance and spew hate with no moderation.

            How many genocides has crypto caused?

            People fled the war in Ukraine with their crypto intact because it’s borderless and empowers the public. Can’t say the same for the banksters you’re batting for.

            • catboss@feddit.de
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              Facebook infamously played a role in the genocide of the Rohingya. Please elaborate what the systematic persecution and murder of a group of people has to do with cryptos and this whole topic about their decline?

              • Schooner@lemmy.ml
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                I mean you’re the one who brought up social media, not me.

                Decentralised social media can amplify hate speech, like in Myanmar, far more than centralised social media. So, it can and will endanger people’s lives. Hell, incel forums have led to mass shootings. You think it won’t happen with a far more popular platform like Lemmy?

  • Wahots@pawb.social
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    1 year ago

    Nah. This happens every few years, has been since 2014. Buy a GPU before they rise up and use all of our electricity again. An new SBF will crash it sometime.

    • goatmeal@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      there are no more notable projects that rely on GPU mining. you should be more worried about taiwan getting invaded.

    • arbitrary@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      What is keeping prices high now is particularly nvidia but also amd transitioning more to an AI/ML pro/server/datacentre market, consumer GPU’s are not a big let alone majority of the pie. They’re simply not making enough consumer cards and don’t care that very little cards are sold because they’re getting ludicrous prices on what does sell. intel gen 2 needs to be good in the mid range to provide competition again, the problem is a distinct lack of competition.

  • TurboTurbo@feddit.nl
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    1 year ago

    I don’t think it is dead, but the hype certainly seems to be over. It is important to realize that as long as the crypto value trend is strongly linked to value of other commodities, it is still being treated as an investment, rather than a currency. Increasing the places where crypto can be actually used to pay will allow for unlinking crypto from being an investment to a currency. I guess there most people are currently not interested in that as much, which I think is unfortunate.