Hamas’s Qassam Brigades has threatened to execute Israeli captives if Israel continues to bombard and kill civilians in Gaza.
“Any targeting of innocent civilians without warning will be met regretfully by executing one of the captives in our custody, and we will be forced to broadcast this execution,” said Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas’ Qassam Brigades.
“We regret this decision but we hold the Zionist enemy and their leadership the responsibility for this,” he said.
It’s great both sides of this conflict have so much respect for protecting the lives of civilians. Ugh. I wish the leaders of Hamas and Bibi’s reactionary government were the ones that would actually suffer the consequences of this war.
This conflict benefits the most: Russia and China (by having US distracted) and Bibi (by having previously divided Israelis united behind him)
Iran too. I’m sure they weren’t too happy with the impending Israeli-Saudi rapprochement. This at a minimum will significantly complicate that.
Hamas has already said it was directly backed by Iran.
I think they overestimate how much this distracts the US. Plans for supporting Israel in all levels of military conflict have been nailed down for decades, and it would be very hard to put so much demand on the US with such a geographically small conflict.
China and Russia are desperate for relief because they both have terribly overplayed their hands. Russia, more so obviously. But if China opts for actual engagement, they’re going to lose. The US will suffer big losses as well but definitely can sustain and overcome the Chinese threat in the long run.
Yes, I think Israel can handle Hamas on their own, but Hezbollah is looking if there is an opportunity for them. I think that’s why US Navy is there to discourage them.
I think it’s much more about Iran and sending them a clear message. Not convinced that anybody sees Hezbollah as a serious threat relative to the danger Iran presents.
Either way, both of them should take note that one of the largest most deadly air forces in the region is floating nearby.
This is why I want a blank check for Ukraine.
Wouldn’t this whole thing just be a huge problem for him tho? After Israel is done, I would think that the government would start getting really uncomfortable questions from the people. Like wtf was the military and the intelligence doing.
A segment of the populace will definitely be feeling that, but remember what happened in the US after 9/11? There weren’t a lot of calls to figure out how intelligence failed so spectacularly because the sabre-rattling government came out in full force, and the country (almost) united against Islamic terrorism. Those who aren’t overtly political or who don’t follow politics too closely will only see that Bibi has reacted with as much force as possible, which plays into his strongman vibe and may even win his party an election in their own right, without having to coalesce with the other parties. After the clusterfuck of elections they’ve been through recently, this could be what seals another decade of Likud rule.
So while the US is “distracted”, Russia and China do what? Steal the pie from the windowsill?
We stop backing Ukraine, we start backing Israel. Ukraine loses billions in funding, which helps Russia. The better off Russia is the larger ally China has.
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That’s rich.
You just killed civilians, what evidence is there to conclude you wouldn’t kill those ppl anyway.
Both sides of this conflict have done so much horrific shit, you can’t trust any of them.
I’m not looking to debate right or wrong. Just like others said, I recognize war crimes on both sides. I would NEVER defend either side of this conflict.
But committing mass war crimes in the way they have, the norms are shattered, and Gaza, at the least, is done for.
As a realist, and without endorsement of any outcome–I think the best Palestians can hope for is being put into refugee camps on the Egyptian and Jordanian borders and those countries challenged to take them in.
Not that either of those countries will. They’ve refused in the past and will continue to.
It’s almost like most Arab countries don’t give a shit about Palastine
They give a shit about not being attacked by a country that’s got the nuclear bomb and the backing of most of the western world.
You do know that Arab countries have repeatedly attacked Israel, including on Yom Kippur which is the equivalent of attacking Mecca during Ramadan?
I’m not pro Israel, just calling out BS. In fact, this was, Iran, Lebanon, and the Palestinians coordinating.
Arabs only care about making sure the Palestinians suffer bc its a diplomatic bargaining chip and propaganda win. They adamantly refuse to help or taken in the Palestinians, but they actively support them for proxy wars. The notion that they care is disprovable.
There’s no good guys in this conflict.
Point here, it wasn’t Lebanon, it was Hezbollah. Hezbollah is tolerated within Lebanon because of a weak Lebanese central government, but they’re still a militia within Lebanon, not Lebanon itself. They more or less represent the Iranian-aligned portion of Lebanese Shiite Muslims, not Lebanese Christians or Sunni Muslims.
Agreed and I was being sloppy.
It was Hezbollah and not “officially” the Lebanese government. But I think there’s at least a solid debate (whether from weakness as you mentioned or active support) that the two are somewhat coupled. Since it allows/can’t stop hezebollah to operate with impunity.
And also waiting to see what happens to Iran on this one. There’s no way the proxy attack goes unanswered.
Lebanon is a failed/failing state with a weak centralized government that can’t exercise total control over the nation, but it’s also a super diverse country. Just saying, it’s a minority of the population which supports Hezbollah, it’s just not a minority which can be suppressed since they receive extensive military support from Iran and Syria. If they tried, it’d be the Lebanese Civil War again
Already told you I agreed and was being sloppy. You are right, and the points are dead on. Take another upvote. Heh.
There will be fighting in portions of Lebanon (geographicly) though where Hezbollah has presence. Israel won’t leave things unanswered.
There’s no good guys in this conflict.
This was true in WW2 also but there clearly were fewer bad guys on the other side.
You’re comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges. You might be right about the differences, but at the end of the day both are covered in shit.
FYI, Blinken just had a conference stating there is no hard, tangible evidence that Iran was involved. That may have been Hamas trying to stir up some more shit.
From what I can gather, there are no good guys between Israel and Palestine because they were set up to fight each other. The UK saw that the Jewish people were desperate following the Holocaust and told them that they can have land that was occupied by other groups with a strong religious identity. The Palestinians were like “WTF? We live here and are Muslim.” Now, the two groups are fighting each other for survival while being supported and encouraged by external powers for their own political gain. This whole thing is fucked up since the victims are both Israel and Palestine.
The conversations about who did what and who’s at fault are SOOOOOOOOOO tangled and terrible at this point that if you’re a person of conscience the best you can do is condem the actions and crimes as they occur.
You’re right that inputs to this conflict are endless and do indeed include WWII. A lot of people don’t realize how terribly the allies carved up the Middle East after WWII. Look how young so many of the countries are there. They literally drew on a map flippantly at the Yalta conference and didn’t give a fuck. It was INSANE.
Israel lost support when the west needed oil reserves discovered in Arab countries… and that just one of a ton of reasons.
You will find people discussing all the times Arab nations have attacked Israel. The Yom Kippur war… imagine if Israel attacked the Saudis during Ramadan?
To anybody who’s paid attention Israel is guilty of horrible apartheid. The living conditions of the Palestinians has been crime against humanity IMHO. And if watching the Israelis demolish generational homes with bulldozers for occupation and fascist settlers doesn’t break your heart then you have none.
But the discussions often leave out the fact that all the Arab nations want the Palestian problem. None of those Arab countries will take them in bc its politically valuable in diplomatic negotiations and PR to have them there suffering.
To that point Lebbanon and Iran helped plan, fund, and execute this recent attack. Palestinians are a proxy for all the Arab nations.
None of these few points even comes close to touching on this conflict… my point is just that it’s so lengthy and convoluted that we need to stick to actions.
Crimes against humanity, though, are clear-cut, and ervytime either side commits them, we have to call it out.
Excellent comment. Thank you.
I tried to figure out who was really to blame for all this yesterday, and I stopped at the Russian revolution without an answer.
Nationalism and the desire for a Jewish state came from the pogroms of Jews in Russia – paraphrased, a Jewish scholar believed they would only have freedom and be respected if they had their own country.
Britain decades later wanted influence in an area that they had none in, and they wanted to grow a Jewish population to create that influence. Zionists happily accepted.
And from then on we’ve had the Arab/Palestine/Israeli enmity.
Everyone has been a victim. Everyone has been an aggressor. I suspect that if I were to follow the source of the Russian pogroms, I’d ultimately end up with the Romans in Israel.
The seeds of the conflict stretch back further. Essentially, the UK promised both Arabs and Jews a state in Palestine in exchange for fighting the Ottoman Empire in World War I.
As part of the aftermath of that conflict, Great Britain was assigned a League of Nations mandate to administer Palestine starting in 1923. It wasn’t exactly always peaceful and essentially the UK decided to nope out after WW2. Basically as soon as it was announced they were leaving there was a Civil War which spiraled into the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 literally the day the mandate ended and Israel declared independence. But yes the whole thing is fucked.
There’s so much fucked about it. Love your comment.
One I explain to people is that at one point there were Palestinian Jews. That tends to blow people’s minds.
The history of awful in the region and this conflict has a sad and crazy depth with no shortages of horrific incidents. That’s why when people are so comfortable calling out one side or another my alarm bells go off.
And honestly it kills me, bc I’m adamantly against centrisim. But the history of this one leaves me there no matter how much I hate it. I can’t see an innocent government in that entire region.
Neither Egypt nor Jordan want to deal with the kind of extremism rife within places like Gaza, and I can’t blame them
…will be met regretfully by executing one of the captives…
We regret this decision but…
Idk if the translation is just wrong, but they’re using the word “regret” weirdly here. Almost seems like a slip of the tongue, betraying their actual regret to have done something so stupid and easily condemnable to such a degree that the international community has a very easy time holding back and not applying much leverage at all in trying to hold Israel back from absolutely obliterating them.
But frankly, I think they’re too zealous to actually regret it at all. They’ll probably live out the rest of their shortened lives in ignorant blissful fervor.
I’m not sure why people wonder, “What is Hamas thinking?!”
They aren’t.
They are a far right fundamentalist extremist terrorist organisation. They are fucking delusional.
Palestinian people deserve so much better than Hamas, and they have to suffer now. That’s just terrible.
They voted Hamas, Support Hamas and sustain it. It was Palestinian civilians who spat onto naked raped bodies of women. Palestinians got what they chose and deserve it. They are no poor people but supporters of s criminal system.
Live 30-40 years in a place where an occupying nation walls your cities, treats you as prisoners, denies and steals resources, and we’ll see which kind of hate you will harbour against your aggressors. You will just see red. I’m not condoning what they are doing but I get why they do, they have been suffering for so long that they want the aggressors to feel the same, and at this point, for them, anyone in Israel is the aggressor. A cornered rabid dog bites anyone.
1937, 1947, 2000, 2001, 2008. These are the years on which the Arab side of Palestine was offered the choice of gaining statehood, but they said no.
Well, yeah, they take half your belongings and they then tell you to accept what you have, I don’t think they will accept it. I don’t believe for an instant that the statehood they were offered covers the land they should have. Is this one of the proposals? What is that divided country.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg
Now, this is the 2008 proposal? It looks hummilliating.
https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/c_fill,g_faces:center,h_407,w_690/448211 .I don’t know if the second image is correct, but given that it is known that israel has been taking land from palestine, what was offered in 2000, 2001 and 2008 would be even less than 1947, and that one looks super bad too, so I really get why they didn’t accept that mockery of a proposal.Edit: look at the 1995 map and tell me that excomunicating the country in such manner (water pipes, electricity, anything that requires having the country conencted simply doesn’t work) isn’t anything but horrible: https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/INTERACTIVE-Ethnic-cleansing.png?w=770&resize=770%2C770 .I have read more and it seems like this is some sort of propaganda, so although the progress of the control zones is kinda correct, the proposals were not those. Don’t check this map. I any case, this source seems more credible and the map is really, really fragmented, my point still stands: https://www.nzz.ch/english/israeli-palestinian-conflict-how-the-political-maps-have-changed-ld.1664125Again, not condoning their actions but… fuck, I really get why they are doing it.
Well, yeah, they take half your belongings and they then tell you to accept what you have, I don’t think they will accept it.
This statement might be valid for the peace plans of 2000s. I don’t think it can be applied to the original suggestions in 1930s and 1940s, since they were getting to own their land for the first time since Britain’s colonisation. That might have been the time to accept compromises, especially given the Palestinian Arabs’ relations with the Nazis during and before WW2.
And of course afterwards, it was the Arabs who launched the first war against Israel in 1948.
Since colonization, before colonization they were a country called Palestine.
Here’s a map from 1400 showing Palestine.
There’s gotta be some limit how far to the history we should be looking at when deciding who gets to live where.
LMFAO, we’ve beat you like dogs and taken 99% of your land, accept this peace offering… Or else.
Again, that’s not what 1937 and 1947 were about at all.
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Are you talking about elections held over 10 years ago? Hamas is an authoritarian militia, nobody would trust them to hold honest elections.
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Use this one weird trick to unite the world in your destruction. It’s super effective!
I think you mixed your memes. “Palestine uses Piss Off Every Nation! It’s super effective!”, or “Try this one weird trick to become radioactive. Hamas loves it!”
I kind of like it.
“achieved its targets”
Raping and killing a bunch of kids at a music festival, was that their targets all along? I am not a fan of the Israeli government, but these Hamas bastards need to be wiped off the Earth, they’re as bad as ISIS.
Doesn’t Israel have a huge number of dual citizens anyway? The whole right of return thing where you pretty much just have to be Jewish and they’ll let you in so they can colonize more. And the parents of most born there too, so even then they’re eligible for their parents dual citizens.
So that’s kinda inevitable.
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I dunno, the internet has told me that Israel is just as bad. I definitely remember when the IDF took a bunch of civilian women and children as hostages and then announced that it was going to livestream their murder.
Oh wait.
There are no good guys in that conflict.
Only bad guys and victims.
Hamas being terrorists doesn’t make it OK for Israel to be committed to genocide any more than Israel’s existence as an ethnofascist apartheid state makes in OK for Hamas to be bombing proms.
Both organizations are making it impossible for Palestinians to live peacefully.
If Israel were committed to genocide there would be no Palestine. It is their historical sensitivity to genocide and limitations placed on them by international law and foreign pressures that imposes on them very different standards of behavior in this war. If they operated by the same set of rules that Hamas does, this conflict would have been over long ago.
Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”
Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.
One survivor who’d returned to the scene later in the day to look for his friends spoke, in a breaking voice, of what he’d seen. Of the bodies, mainly of young women, lying cold and mutilated. Of scantily clad corpses, many of whom appeared to have been shot at point-blank. Of cars, perforated by bullets or blown up by grenades.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-accountIsrael does not perform atrocities like this. This wasn’t collateral damage, this wasn’t an attack on a valid military target, it was intentionally kidnapping, raping, and murdering civilians. This sort of behavior makes it very hard for me to swallow the, “both sides are equally bad,” narrative. I had a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian situation before, it is quickly evaporating.
I’m not denying that some of this is factual reporting, but that particular source can be very biased with respect to Israel.
Overall, we rate Tablet Magazine as right-center biased based on an editorial bias that moderately favors the pro-Israel nationalist right. We also rate them Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the promotion of conspiracy theories despite a clean third-party fact check record.
Israel has turned Gaza into an open air prison. Today Bibi announced the blockade would become total, including food, water, and medicine, which sure sounds like a path to genocide, but I’ll save that criticism until it actually plays out. In general, Israel is an apartied state. Hamas is a bunch of murderous terrorists committing war crimes, doing far more harm to their supposed cause than good. This attack will result in far more of their people suffering. But they count on that, hate within the Palestine community in Gaza is what gives them political power, so the civilians Isreal is currently killing will just continue to fuel the cycle of violence.
Everyone sucks here, Hamas sucks way way way more, but that doesn’t make Israel “good”. If you compare Nazi Germany to apartied South Africa, the former is going to win the evil country contest everytime. But that doesn’t make apartied South Africa good. If it wasn’t for the Book of Revelations, America (it’s government and it’s people) would care as much about this conflict as it does about various civil wars and genocides happening all over the world, which is to say not at all (unless oil or other natural resources are imperilled).
Today Bibi announced the blockade would become total, including food, water, and medicine, which sure sounds like a path to genocide
My understanding is the border crossing with Egypt is still open, so Palestine can still have access to all of that.
Everyone sucks here, Hamas sucks way way way more, but that doesn’t make Israel “good”.
You make a good point about no one having clean hands in this conflict, but one party here seems willing to commit atrocities that the other is not. One party is historically willing to compromise and negotiate for a viable solution and the other has not, and in fact has it in their charter that they will not negotiate or compromise.
[Hamas’s charter,] article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
What we need to end this amicably is a solution that neither party is happy with, one they are equally dissatisfied with, because that is a hallmark of compromise. If one or both parties are unwilling to compromise, the erosion of Palestinian lands and power will continue as it has, and such atrocious acts may serve to hasten it.
My understanding is the border crossing with Egypt is still open, so Palestine can still have access to all of that.
The border crossing to Egypt is usually only for people when it’s open. As I understand it, all goods have to use a different crossing passing into Israel first and then Gaza.
The border crossing to Egypt is usually only for people when it’s open.
why all the innocent palestinians arent rushing for the border to get out is beyond me. you know what’s coming. being dead and saying ‘i told you the bastards would kill me’ sounds great up until the point you are dead.
Hoping Israel doesnt unleash possibly the most intense campaign of this generation is a fools dream really and unless you are a combatant, you’d get the hell out ASAP. Hamas is going to be blown to limbs and those that survive the bombings and full scale assaults are going to wind up Munich’d after all this is over. They cant do what they did and not expect utter retribution
Probably because Egypt isn’t going to let them in either.
If Israel were committed to genocide there would be no Palestine.
Hate to point out the irony, especially in this context… but at the rate things are going, in another 5 years there probably won’t be a Palestine.
“Israel are the good guys because the international community has stopped them from completing the genocide at a quick pace”
God I really hope a ethno state claims your own land as theirs, puts you in an open air prison as it gradually steals pieces of it for its owns settlers year after year, denies you food and medicines. Shoots women, children, medics and reporters in your community.
“Israel are the good guys because the international community has stopped them from completing the genocide at a quick pace”
Work on your reading comprehension, because you conveniently ignored much of what I wrote. The Jews were genocided. They don’t want to genocide others, unlike their opponents.
20% of the state of Israel is Palestinian/arab, with full citizenship and rights. It seems their behaviors are motivated by self-defense, not destroying an ethnic group.
God I really hope a ethno state claims your own land as theirs, puts you in an open air prison as it gradually steals pieces of it for its owns settlers year after year, denies you food and medicines. Shoots women, children, medics and reporters in your community.
If I my country theoretically started a losing war with our neighbor and then refused to make peace when we lost, I’d expect to be occupied by hostile soldiers and be denied autonomy until my country did. When a hostile army is occupying and guerilla attacks or riots/uprisings happen, people get shot. It’s almost like there are consequences for endless violence and open warfare against one’s neighbor. No side has a monopoly on victimhood here.
The fact that you would wish such ills on others for recognizing this, that you look at this conflict in such a reductive way, is telling of your character.
The Jews were genocided. They don’t want to genocide others
And muslims were killed on mass as part of that same genocide, so that means they physical cant be involved in a genocide of their own right?
20% of the state of Israel is Palestinian/arab, with full citizenship and rights.
Can you read your own wikipedia article?
While most Arabs remaining in Israel were granted citizenship, they were subject to martial law in the early years of the state.[32][33] Zionism had given little serious thought as to how to integrate Arabs, and according to Ian Lustick subsequent policies were 'implemented by a rigorous regime of military rule that dominated what remained of the Arab population in territory ruled by Israel, enabling the state to expropriate most Arab-owned land, severely limit its access to investment capital and employment opportunity, and eliminate virtually all opportunities to use citizenship as a vehicle for gaining political influence.
Or can we talk about how whats going on in Israel is recognised as apartheid?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
If I my country theoretically started a losing war with our neighbor and then refused to make peace when we lost,
You people are physically incapable of having a good faith thought on this issue. The Palestinians didnt “start a war with their neighbour” They had their land taken from them by the west so they could replace their Jewish populations.
The fact that you would wish such ills on others for recognizing this, that you look at this conflict in such a reductive way, is telling of your character.
Lmao cope.
And muslims were killed on mass as part of that same genocide, so that means they physical cant be involved in a genocide of their own right?
This seems incoherent, I don’t follow. What are you trying to say?
Can you read your own wikipedia article?
I did read the article, you seem to have difficulty with verb tenses. That was in the past. At present Arab Israelis have the same legal citizen rights as Jewish Israelis.
Or can we talk about how whats going on in Israel is recognised as apartheid?
www.amnesty.org/…/israels-system-of-apartheid/Thanks for the link, I will watch that when I get the chance.
You people are physically incapable of having a good faith thought on this issue. The Palestinians didnt “start a war with their neighbour” They had their land taken from them by the west so they could replace their Jewish populations.
“You people,” classy. What people are you including me among in order to dismiss my opinion? Spell it out for me.
This conflict is a long and winding road, but based on my understanding that’s exactly what happened. Palestinians didn’t like the UN partition plan so they resorted to violence and attacked their Jewish neighbors, triggering the Arab-Israeli War of 1948:
The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.
Lmao cope.
Grow up.
You’re arguing Jewish people would perpetrate genocide simply because Jewish people on the past were victims (despite all the evidence that they are currently commiting a genocide) so I took that same logic and applied it to the Muslims of palestine.
It’s in the past
Jfc. I’m guessing you’re also one those people that says “why do we have lgbt/womens/black rights? You already have all your rights?”
You people as in people who go out of their way to disregard reality to simp for a religious apartheid ethno state that is commiting genocide.
Again, you’re phrasing it as if Israel and palestine had coexistence as neighbours then palestine decided to attack out of no where. The UN (or more specifically the British) decided they were just going to take the Palestinians land to make a country of their own in an act of blatant colonialism. So they were responding to being invaded.
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Snark aside, I do completely agree, and there’s a lot that I would criticize Israel for. That list does not, however, include mass murder, rape, and kidnapping of random civilians.
It does include apartheid, genocide, belief in racial superiority and murdering journalists though. We can’t equate what one side has done with the other as one side has generally held all the power while one side has been persistently oppressed. Also, it’s pretty hard to say whether mass murder, rape and kidnapping civilians is as bad as, worse than, or better than genocide.
The Israeli government regularly commits atrocities and crimes against humanity. Hamas regularly commits atrocities and crimes against humanity. There are no good guys here, just bad guys in charge being funded and goaded by other bad guys and innocent civilians being needlessly murdered.
Rape and kidnapping maybe not but did you just say that Israel hasn’t been murdering Palestinians? Or are you saying they’ve never murdered more than 200 at once
You know as well as I do that the IDF does not go around Palestinian villages slaughtering everyone they see.
Israel’s hands are not remotely perfectly clean, and there have absolutely been actions that are reprehensible, but the operations of the IDF and Hamas are not remotely equivalent, as you’re perfectly aware.
Yes I’m aware it’s different but I’m wondering why you phrased it like there hasn’t been violence against (non-hamas) Palestinian citizens by Israel.
Because the scale and level of intention to harm civilians are completely incomparable. Israel is generally not trying to murder every Palestinian citizen it finds. Meanwhile, that is Hamas’ explicit reason for existing, as literally stated in their founding charter.
Israel has done a lot of shit, and I don’t deny that. But it hasn’t acted the way Hamas does.
Why would you want to rephrase “mass murder of civilians” (as in go shoot up a couple hundred teenagers at a music festival, with some rape mixed in) to “violence against citizens” ?
Because that’s their only talking point
Remember when terrorists attacked the USA, UK, France and Spain?
And then we decided to commit war crimes and deprive civilians of water, electricity and food, while destroying their houses?
Oh wait, we didn’t.
We actually tried to win hearts and minds while targeting just the terrorists.
Didn’t work out, but we didn’t become vicious war criminals against poor innocent civilians who just happened to be ethnically related to the terrorists.
Israel is not deserving of support by the civilized world.
People have forgotten that denying people basic necessities in the hopes that they die out is also genocide.
lmao what hearts and minds do you expect to win out of a population who has religious beef with you? A population who would gladly wipe you out if they could?
Nah, Israel needs to be able to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the name of peace, so that Palestinians can find their peace elsewhere.
Okay I get what you’re trying to say but Americans absolutely caused massive amounts of wanton destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Um, Iraq and Afghanistan? We absolutely DESTROYED ALL of Iraq’s infrastructure in like a week and then GW flew out to an aircraft carrier with a banner that said “Mission Accomplished”.
Then we spend the next 20 years kicking in doors and killing civilians cause reasons.
Then we bail and leave all the dudes that helped us out behind so they can pay the price for helping the enemy…good times…
Israel is not deserving of support by the civilized world.
Totally agree but just like the drug commercial in the '80s…“I learned it from watching you!”
Wait what? Didn’t Obama drone like a wedding and the doctors without borders?
Lol the US and Canada murdered 95% of the natives, including 100% of those who resisted plus their families, took their land and put the rest into remote reservations
Israel’s shit but not as shit
And then we decided to commit war crimes and deprive civilians of water, electricity and food, while destroying their houses? Oh wait, we didn’t.
You serious? If you’re from the US: Have you by any chance heard of Guantanamo Bay? Abu Ghraib?
The equivalency discussions are all BS.
Terrorist attacks targeting civilians are bad.
Also, indiscriminate bombing killing civilians is bad.
A civilized world really shouldn’t condone either. And one doesn’t justify the other.
Flying planes into civilian buildings killing thousands wasn’t an appropriate response to their government supporting tyrants who tortured and killed dissidents. (Also, probably not a good idea to support tyrants.)
The hundreds of thousands of civilians who died in the middle east in response to those attacks shouldn’t have had to pay the price on such an attack even if their country had had anything to do with it in the first place.
The only appropriate “both sides” in these kinds of situations is the capacity to have empathy and regret over the suffering that occurs to normal people trying to live their lives on both sides of the conflicts.
Unfortunately a lot of what I’m seeing online these days is the logical equivalent of “Bin Laden was justified in 9/11 because the US’s foreign policy caused the suffering of many in the middle east.” Logic I happen to think is pretty disgusting personally, just as I’ve also always found dismissal of civilian suffering in broader military responses reprehensible.
Not a lot of countries have clean hands to be pointing fingers with, but the only way we move towards a world with less blood on our collective hands is by unequivocally pointing to human rights abuses where they occur and saying “this is not okay.”
Not “this is okay because so and so bombed a city block first and wasn’t touching black while saying I’m rubber and you’re glue.”
No - targeting or indiscriminately killing civilians is not okay - full stop.
And if one’s attitude about the civilian deaths of one group of people is anything less than that, they might just be a bit racist towards that group of people, and may want to reexamine how they look at fellow humans and the degree to which minor differences in skin color or religion or ancestral identity outweighs the commonality of the human experience of pain, suffering, and loss.
TL;DR: It’s perfectly appropriate to recognize that the Palestinian people have suffered injustice and mistreatment while also recognizing that a terrorist attack on Israeli civilians is repugnant. The mental gymnastics to recognize the former and not the latter is pretty gross though, and honestly every time I see it (and frequently these days) I can’t help but think it probably really does boil down to racist assholes using false equivalency to justify their bigotry.
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Rest assured, I understand the mess fairly well. I’ve spent a decent amount of time in Middle East and know several Palestinians and Israelis.
There’s quite a lot that I’d strongly criticize Israel for, but intentional murder and rape of civilians is something that can never be justified, no matter how much critical theory you read.
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1 are you arguing that young Israeli soldiers would be raping away in the same manner?
2 maybe argue against livestreaming killing hostages?
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I love this take because it implies that Palestinians, on their own, are incapable of self-determination and self-governance without degenerating into raping, slaving, barbarians, thereby justifying the existence of Gaza and Israel’s actions; yet, this is presented earnestly, without a hint of irony or self-awareness, and with the veil of being in some way pro-palestinian.
You don’t think cutting off food, water, and power to millions isn’t an are we the baddies moment too?
Both sides are acting like petulant children while their people suffer
They don’t take them hostage, usually they just kill them right there.
You know as well as I do that the IDF has never done anything like what happened on Saturday. Kidnapping children? Shooting random people waiting at a bus stop? Slaughtering 200 people at a festival? Taking a hundred hostages and then threatening to murder them while live streaming it?
Israel has done a lot of shit, and deserves criticism for all of it, but it has not done anything comparable to this.
They have regularly and repeatedly carried out air strikes targeting civilian infrastructure with no evidence of military targets.
There are multiple reports from multiple years of IDF soldiers killing children, including the recent video of soldiers killing a young boy in front of a cheering crowd.
What about all the videos of the things IDF has done to people in the West Bank? Countless reports of women being raped before being thrown from their homes, and their family members being shot for resisting having their land stolen from them.
Yes, what happened the other day was terrible. But it’s not unilateral, Israel has committed war crimes against Palestinians for decades. Just because they have been spread out instead of all happening on one day does not make them better.
Do you have any sources of, for example, countless women being raped by the IDF/Israelis?
Ok not to say this isn’t awful but you if you have to go back 75 years to find 4 rapes, don’t you think the wording ‘countless’ and the implication this is a regular practice in the West Bank is a bit of a lie?
didn’t see it was already 75 years ago. i think you’re right.
i went looking online to see if i could find any reports on rape allegations. most sources are news websites that i’m not familiar with so i don’t want to use them as source.
most reputable news sources have articles about rape allegations among soldiers, not from palestinians. Which i think is a problem in every army, regardless of the nation.
so i think i’m in agreement with you here that there’s not much evidence that the IDF is raping palestinians.
having said that, it feels like a technicality in the face of all the palestinians the IDF has murdered and evicted. Where i’m talking exclusively about civilians, not hamas terrorists.
Just your typical 80 yr occupation with no real options to even become a state, I mean how bad could that be right?
Except that Oslo accord that they walked out on, and that fact that this is happening in the Gaza strip, a section of Palestinian controlled land with the 1967 borders, a foreign and maritime border and had all Jewish residents (including those that predated the 1948 beginning of hostilities) evicted, often an gunpoint and has had autonomy for nearly two decades now right? Besides that option.
So the USN is going to park the newest CVN in the fleet off the coast in a couple days. If they don’t end up participating in some sort of massive hostage rescue operation with a bunch of SEALs (and, perhaps, other regional/NATO specops branches), I’m honestly going to be kinda surprised.
This is very much “fuck around and find out” territory. I don’t think Hamas realizes how much the rules have changed in reaction to what they did this weekend. Israel isn’t going to stop until they’ve killed or captured every last militant they can get their hands on in Gaza.
Obligatory disclaimer: Both the IDF and various incarnations of Arab alliances/rebels/terrorist groups have been unequivocally heinous towards each other (and their respective affiliated civilian populations) since Israel became a country. We’re not here to debate that. This is about an attack on civilians in Israel that, proportional to their national population, had five times the casualties that 9/11 inflicted.
Every country who is an ally of Isreal will be sending in their special ops teams to assist, we can be sure of that. I expect the Canadian teams to be involved. I am sure there is a national kidnapped or killed from almost all developed countries by the sound of it.
Haha I love it how you guys watched enough GI Joe movies to think you can just helicopter some guys with night goggles into Gaza to surprise Hamas and free a few hundred hostages before they know what’s up
Here’s what’ll happen in the real world: either they decide to surrender thousands of prisoners and admit defeat (highly unlikely) or they’ll decide it’s time to drop as many bombs as they can spare on Gaza as quickly as possible (unlikely) or they’ll keep dropping bombs on confirmed positions for a few weeks and transition back to the status quo when support starts to wane (rather likely).
I’m sure Hamas will start offing Israeli and US hostages first while other governments can buy their citizens back for a couple mill a pop in the background
Quietly returning to the status quo is radically different from what happened after the Munich Olympics. What is it that makes you think the mossad and their political leaders are so much quicker to drop a grudge now?
I consider Mossad doing Mossad things and Hamas doing Hamas things as the status quo. As opposed to large scale incursions
Always remember, if you plan on doing some stupid crime or barbaric thing, just make sure you say the other guy is responsible first. Prosecutors HATE this one trick!
Why would they negotiate with Terrorists?
Because, despite what Hollywood told you, everyone does
I’m in support of not negotiating with terrorists. If I’m captured, kill me. I’m likely too suffer and then die anyway, and be leverage in the process. Fuck that.
Palistine, don’t you know you’re just supposed to let yourself be genocided quietly? You weren’t supposed to fight back! The status quo! The more I see this shit the more I have to laugh. Is what Hamas doing good? No, not even remotely. Is it what you expect from people who have been nearly totally eradicated by the opressors that completely surround them? Yes, definitely.
It’s time to free Palestine from this planet.
This is the Hannibal Directive in action. The Zionist regime does not and has not ever cared about civilian casualties.
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