If the prick wants people on-call 24 hours a day then he needs to pony up the wages to match with accompanying extended holiday for downtime.
I’m available for work after hours - 1 week a month, scheduled several months in advance.
I get about 1000€ extra for it, per month. And also 42 days of paid vacation per year, plus unlimited sick days.That’s what this rule would do - force employers to make it worth your while if they need you after hours, and force them to think about whether they really need that.
I want what you have, I’m getting screwed.
Fuck, I get about a 150€ for being on call for a week. I’m getting ripped off.
You guys are getting paid for being on call?!
…me neither
JFC, as a business owner I 100% not expect my employees to be reachable after hours. Why do these idiots don’t understand the basic principle: happy employee is productive employee. Understanding life happens and work is ‘just’ work. Give and take equally, be reasonable about stuff - basic human empathy… I hold my own personal time in high regard, it would be insane not to hold other people’s personal time in high regard too.
Who the fuck would call their employee after hours? In none of the places I’ve ever worked, would the boss even think about calling me to do something when I’m not at work. Nobody would expect me to answer. You don’t need a law about basic things like that.
This law isn’t catered to you personally, don’t you think there are bosses or work places that call their employees after hours - it’s pretty common. I don’t mind, but I get mails and messages after hours and just answer them.
It does effect me without me knowing in some ways, but I personally feel it’s more important to help someone, that also might be stressed and decide to contact me, for some help or questions.
If the person or boss isn’t an asshole I don’t mind, but not everyone has that luxury, of having a boss that cares. Often they don’t want to contact you after hours.
If it was worth stressing about, it was worth discussing with me when I was on the clock. The entire premise of a job is that I work in direct exchange for money. No money? No work. Pay me or wait until next shift.
If it was worth stressing about, it was worth discussing with me when I was on the clock.
If your users suddenly start getting errors in prod at 6 PM, that wasn’t something that anyone would’ve known 2 hours earlier when you were still at work, but it affects business nonetheless.
However, a company of any real size should have employees who get paid to be on call to deal with ongoing issues. In the example of the software industry, this would be site reliability engineers who take part of an on call rotation.
But if you’re a max 20 person startup? You bet your ass that your average software engineer can expect a phone call.
So what I’m saying is that nuance is a thing. Working for a large corporation, or just in a job where nothing you do can be super urgent? Literally ignore your boss. Working in a small company where you taking that phone call has an actual impact on the company’s near-term financial performance or reputation? Might be worth reconsidering your stance, but probably not if your boss is an asshole and you know that no matter how well you perform, you’ll never get promoted.
See, you’re just lucky. Many folks don’t have good bosses, so a law like this is good.
So You need a law for normal, decent behavior?
Have you been living under a rock?
Hell, one of the two major political parties in the US has been pushing (successfully in many states) to roll back child labor laws. Teens have died already: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/20/republican-child-labor-law-death
No only do we need the laws, but we need to be conscientious in applying them and making sure they stay strong.
Fighting fascism is exhausting, it’s a constant battle.
There are a lot of jobs that require out of hours support, specifically those that aren’t tied to business hours. In tech at least, many of the sites and services you use are built off the backs of software engineers that are paged at 5am because latency is a little higher than normal.
I don’t raise this to say that this rule is bullshit, but to say that there are a lot of arguments that will be used to push people to work longer than their allotted hours. IMO this is absolutely required, but I would go further and say that any contact outside of working hours implies a working contract, and guarantees that the employee is paid for the disruption caused. That includes on-call too, which is often unpaid.
Labor laws in the US are, frankly, hilariously bad. You deserve unlimited sick pay, at least 25 days holiday (separate from sick leave), and the removal of at-will employment. What is described here is the bare minimum of what you should have.
There are a lot of jobs that require out of hours support, specifically those that aren’t tied to business hours. In tech at least, many of the sites and services you use are built off the backs of software engineers that are paged at 5am because latency is a little higher than normal.
There is a very easy solution to this dilemma: pay someone to stand ready at off-hours.
While true, there are some complications to this:
- Unsociable hours usually require more pay
- If you’re already working 40 hours a week, focusing on stuff out of hours is going to be hard. I know this all too well!
IMO, this is EXACTLY where outsourcing should be used. Either move someone from the US (or your home country) to where you need support, ensure you have a good triage system for issues that might come up, etc.
What is complicated? You give two bullet points and a potential solution that all fall under the umbrella of “paying someone.” This solves the problem.
It’s a simple solution to what’s a more nuanced problem.
Be honest. If faced with the choice to cut hours/roles, move roles overseas, or to “pay more”, do you think many business owners will do the latter?
You need to consider the nuance here, otherwise you find a similar situation to the minimum wage rises, where businesses complain about the operations not being viable because they need to start treating workers like humans.
Yes, I agree. We definitely need to consider the “nuance” of a situation where business is asked to treat their workers like human beings.
You can be as obtuse as you want. You know I’m right, and it’s exactly why legislation is needed to ensure these things are done correctly to stop businesses from exploiting the rules.
Those of us who admin critical systems know when we’re responsible and know which folks call us regarding those systems. I’m not answering a call from a random manager but If the engineering chain calls, they don’t abuse the privilege.
