These people are poorly informed, Loops already exists
His “job” is to go on stage places and be overconfident. Being informed is not part of that job.
“Exists” yea but not really usable, it’s more raw than Pixelfed
I swear, we’re just witnessing the next power-grab by people richer than us.
Anyone who isn’t advocating for Mastodon, the federated option, is either a fool or being fooled.
Mastodon is trash
So is twitter and all the other clones.
That’s still not an excuse to go with the centralized option when centralization is what put people in this position.
Bluesky is better and decentralised
How is it better?
If it’s really decentralized, where are the other instances?
It’s better than X because there’s no nonsense right-wing political propaganda and shitty CEO, and it’s better than Mastodon because it’s more user friendly.
It is meant to be decentralised, but most people aren’t creating their own instances.
it’s better than Mastodon because it’s more user friendly.
This is achieved through centralization. There’s a reason nobody else is hosting their own PDS. You use the bluesky app, on the bluesky website, through the bluesky servers.
Once you get passed the massive hurdle of making an account (no different than when we all collectively figured out email), it’s the exact same UI and experience.
It always makes me laugh when people say “sign up is hard”…it’s 100% just an excuse, and a majority of the time the effort involved before coming to this conclusion is 0.
So… censorship and not-actually-being-decentralized are your reasons for liking it more?
shitty CEO
Err… don’t be fooled. The CEO of bluesky is only in this to make money. If he could do what musk does, odds are he would.
There’s no censorship the right-wingers haven’t moved to bluesky yet.
not-actually-being-decentralized are your reasons for liking it more
Still better than X and Mastodon, so yes.
If he could do what musk does, odds are he would.
You mean aggressively lobby for right wing takeover and attempt to influence international governance? I have my doubts
ATP is also federated, and the model is much more scalable than ActivityPub. You’re already free to host all of your Bluesky account and all your posts on your own PDS. They’re opening up the other services to federation as they reach maturity.
Yes I am also curious why you say one is more scalable. What’s the diff?
ActivityPub based platforms (Mastodon, Pixelfed) are monolithic services. You have to run the entire instance (account hosting, feed generation, moderation etc.) all in one place on one machine.
While you can do work with loads balancing to manage high traffic moments, this approach is still brittle to spikes in load.
ATP separates each of these services and handles how’s these services communicate and operate. I can’t really explain it better than their documentation, but one easy example to point to is how you can self-hodt your own PDS (Personal Data Server) which stores your account data and posts, meaning you can keep it stored entirely on your own hardware separate from whoever provides your feed building and presentation service.
I’d highly recommend reading both the ATP and ActivityPub documentation as both are very well written and communicated these differences more effectively.
If I have to explain why separation of concerns in the way that ATP approaches things is more scalable, I might suggest doing some reading on web application architecture patterns and the pros, cons, and practical applications of each.
The TL;DR version is that if the different components of your application run independently of each other, it’s easier to have redundancy and extra resources in place for the specific components that require it.
This is also helpful for federation, as the end goal of ATP is to be able to host your personal data where you want, use the feed builder that you want, the labeller that you want, the app view that you want, regardless of who runs each service.
and the model is much more scalable than ActivityPub.
How so?
They’re opening up the other services to federation as they reach maturity.
Why are they waiting? Why should we trust them?
The “how so” is evident if you try to use any of these platforms regularly. ActivityPub based platforms chug slowly and/or just don’t load feeds at all. Mastodon and Pixelfed have been very disappointing. The software is heavy to run and the monolithic structure means your provider has to run everything in one stack. If that stack can’t keep up with demand at any link in the chain, the whole thing falls over
As for why they’re waiting, they’re waiting on public release because they’re in active development. They are working with a number of independent devs. This is all explained in the ATP documentation.
As for why you should trust them, the question is trust them with what? If you don’t trust them with holding your data, self host your PDS and you can host your account and all it’s posts yourself. If you don’t trust their feed, you can use one of the community’s many other feed algorithm options.
Personally I don’t have a problem with the current “distributed data, centralised presentation” model since you still have the option to select your own feeds.
I highly recommend reading both the ActivityPub and ATP docs as they’re both freely available and easy to read. The difference in design philosophy is apparent in both, and anyone who’s ever worked on webscale projects will be able to see why ATPs more distributed model is more scalable.
ActivityPub based platforms chug slowly and/or just don’t load feeds at all.
I don’t have this issue. Maybe it’s your internet connection or you’re just lying.
As for why they’re waiting, they’re waiting on public release because they’re in active development. They are working with a number of independent devs. This is all explained in the ATP documentation.
Yeah, this sounds like bullshit to placate people like you / what you’re told to tell others. This is not a legitimate reason to wait for a public release. Hopefully anyone reading this can judge for themselves.
As for why you should trust them, the question is trust them with what?
Trust them with “opening up the other services to federation as they reach maturity.” Why are you ignoring this part and supplementing your own? I assume it’s because you don’t have a legitimate answer and you’re trying to derail and distract.
Of course, you try to send me off and say “just read this, bro. It’s all explained here.” No. I’m here to scrutinize your support for this centralized, private platform.
Right now, your reasons for supporting it are incorrect at best and malicious at worst.
Everyone reading this: be careful of viral marketing. It’s cheaper and more effective for these businesses to advertise their product by having people argue for it like this guy right here than it is to buy an ad on TV or something.
Incidentally, Christine Webber (who probably knows a bit about the subject) was going over how decentralized BlueSky really is or not (spoiler, it’s not): https://social.coop/@cwebber/113527462572885698
His heart is in the right place but money has twisted his mind so much his heart had to go along with it to survive
Stupid. There are already alternatives. Nobody wants them.
No matter how good you make it, now that tiktok was taken from people any app will just be the tiktok replacement being forced on us instead of a worthwhile social media unto itself.
It’s not like twitter which sold its own soul and was subsequently run into the ground. I think any attempt to replace tiktok will just piss people off, especially if they’re clearly American corporate enterprises.
Zuckerberg is giggling at you.
No. Fuck you Mark. Corpocrats don’t get it. The community likes this momentum. We like meeting Chinese people. We like the fediverse. Stop trying to charge us for the use of the public square
AT+CCLK?why are they so hellbound on avoiding the fediverse
Rich people = successful therefore they should control everything because its obviously the only way for that thing to be successful because success = revenue. According to rich people that is.
No money in fediverse
No money in Twitter either
Yeah it’s kinda sad, that open source gets so little love in terms of money.
I would hope that the EU may help here, and in very small steps, that is true, but there could be so much more money (which would still be very little to the EU) that would have a significant effect there.
There is, just not a lot and not for a giant central company that controls it.
You can have a private instance, you can have premium accounts on instances, companies can have their own instance.
There is
Compared to what corporate has it’s basically no money…
A paid instance with high quality UI/ux and stability would actually be good. They can display ads to their hearts content. It just requires them to take the risk and develop it. There is already a solid base to start.
I can tell you right now, that I have no intention of watching ads. That’s the reason I came here to begin with
Thats fine no one is saying you should watch ads. The discussion is that VC people need to build a brand new app on the AT protocol because there is no money in the fediverse. But everything they want to build on AT can be done on Activity pub. As long as they arent federating the ads then no one outside their instance should care.
There still no money in federative your content and not getting paid for it
Not the point. Not what I was saying at all.
The point is AP is a platform for anyone to build their app on. If someone wants to build an app they can build it with their own UI/algo/whatever feature and monetization model they want. They don’t need to go to AT for that. As long as their ads(or however they choose to monetize) isnt federating to other instances then no other fediverse users would care.
Ffs, money really is evil, and more monies are more evil.
Just imagine using your money not in exchange for getting even more money …
Anything that feeds on itself is bound to be sinister.
Just promote and support loops, ya bastard.
There’s a fediverse alternative made by same people who have made pixelfed called Loops Link
Isn’t loops just the pixelfed instance run by the developer?
Have you used loops? I tried to sign up and its been ~6 hours without a verification email. Its great they have a testflight app on iOS but I’ve been looking for an android apk with no luck. I really want a federated tik tok to blow up but I’m finding it hard to even get set up.
Yeah, it’s an impressive tech showcase for such a small Dev team… But it’s pretty lackluster as a tiktok replacement.
That verify email will come, but don’t expect a mountain of quality content once it does
I used it and it’s very disappointing, the content feels like that old website that showed you YouTube videos with 0 views.
one thing red note nails is easily letting you use the background music of another video for your video, that bare minimum needs to be in loops
its been 2 days, they should at least let content creators of any kind have priority to get some stuff on the platform, I was gonna say link your tiktok to the signup if its manual verification but thats gone lmao
It’ll probably be another day or two before you get the email. It’ll have a link to an APK to download.
Good to know, thanks!
Loops has some work if it ever wants to really blow up. I crashed constantly while using it the other day, and it’s feature set needs work. It has potential though.
Loops is even less federated that Blue Sky, meaning not at all. (It’s on the roadmap, though.)
Given the track record of blue sky and pixelfed, I would out my money on pixelfed.
Tho Cuban is asking specifically for ATProto. Guess loops could pivot lol
wtf ever happened to vine?
edit TIL tldr: bought by twitter and killed. founders tried to build a new one in 2020 and died in 2023.
The founders died in 2023 ?
Twitter bought it
Video will not work for AT whatsoever. Text and images, fine, but I’m pretty sure leveraging edge delivery of video is just not going to work out well for users. I think they’ll need a centralized host for that portion, or some fancy ways to offload bandwidth otherwise to prevent constant hammering of popular videos.
PeerTube uses WebTorrent technology. Each server hosts a torrent tracker and each web browser viewing a video also shares it. This allows to share the load between the server itself and the clients as well as the bandwidth used through P2P technology.
Yes, and it’s incredibly slow and wouldn’t scale to millions of users. If one user is high bandwidth, and another low, you’d have uneven distribution of traffic for a newly connecting user, meaning the entirety of whatever you’re about to watch won’t be completed in time for a good user interaction flow. The issue isn’t whether it’s technically possible or not, but if it’s functional enough for similar traffic as TikTok.
The other issue with torrenting is that a lot of users may incur data charges if the service were to be constantly seeding other users on limited data plans or with data or speed caps in general. It’s just not the right tool for the job.
It will scale just fine, so long as the ratio of instances:users is similar.
The current ratio of consumers:creators on youtube is 41:1, by my research. A single server of sufficient power could easily serve thousands of users.
by my research. A single server of sufficient power could easily serve thousands of users.
That’s some shitty research you’ve done then.
1000 users streaming something that’s 5mbps would be 5gbps.
5gbps isn’t common for consumers… and costs a lot in a datacenter (about 4k/month on the cheaper end).
Buddy, do you not know how periods work? That’s 2 different sentences you’ve mashed together and pretended they were one.
Secondly, I didn’t say simultaneously.
I do know how sentences work. I also know that paragraphs and posts sound be related to each other. Your sentences are not completely divorced from each other.
The point was that you’re claiming to do research on something just to turn around and say something that WILDLY wrong. This discredits any amount of research you would have done.
Doesn’t matter if you say simultaneously or not. You said THOUSANDS… I showed you just 1000. And this was ONLY looking at bandwidth. Not actual server costs.
The point was that you’re claiming to do research on something just to turn around and say something that WILDLY wrong
I claimed to do research on something very specific. If you have evidence to the contrary, please feel free to prove me wrong instead of just intentionally misrepresenting my statement.
Doesn’t matter if you say simultaneously or not.
…of course it does? A thousand simultaneous streams is not going to have the same load as a dozen…
That’s not how this would have to work though. Even with dedicated seeding instances, the instantiation of a session for a torrent is LONG. Like 5s+ long. A request and response from a CDN is in the milliseconds. Users wouldn’t use a system that takes 5s just for the initial request for a single video, plus the additional time to sort for segments and recombining before it plays. Even in a fast-ish scenario, that’s like 10s alone.
Imagine waiting 10s for a stupid internet video to even start playing to watch some kid dance with a rubber chicken in their pants.
the instantiation of a session for a torrent is LONG. Like 5s+ long
That’s weird because it works instantly for me.
Could implement torrents, which I believe is how Peertube handles it.
You apparently do not internet. Anything with a wait time is not an app platform people will use.
more than half of visitors leave a page if they’re forced to wait longer than 3 seconds
and it’s not outlandish to suggest that length decreases every year.
109ms response time was the goal circa 2009. Now, with the advent of Kubernetes, response time as are in seconds. Proxies on top of proxies cost request time. Users will abandon.
some fancy ways to offload bandwidth otherwise to prevent constant hammering of popular videos
it’s called a CDN
CDN won’t scale to millions of users all uploading videos on a decentralized system. Article is specifically talking about AT Protocol which doesn’t account for video. Making a global CDN distribution of videos from decentralized sources is whole other ball of wax.
Bluesky has videos though?
Bluesky has videos linked to a static host by a different site or provider. They are not themselves the host of those videos. Different scenario.
So why does it for for AP with Loops? What’s the fundamental difference between, isn’t the Fediverse the more decentralised system?
Because Activity Pub is not a data salad. A video lives in a specific place.
I don’t think it has been proven that Loops is viable at scale yet.
Can you reform this question?
Loops uses ActivityPub and feeds video in a TikTok like manner.
What’s the difference that makes it not achievable for AT but okay for AP?
Long story short Activity Pub only pulls the content it needs from remote servers when it needs it and can choose how to handle media (serve the original or cache and proxy). It already is similar-ish to a CDN.
AT-Proto is super complex, but my understanding is that a new server (app in AT-Proto parlance) needs to copy everything beforehand from all others, and needs to constantly replicate everything, wether it will be served or not, making the data transfers intractably massive.
Because one costs money and another doesn’t. Simple fact.
CDN distribution of content is 2X the cost of static hosted files. This isn’t a pendant saying “I CAN DO THIS” scenario, it’s “can it be monetized”, and in the case of of a video service on AT, absolutely not. Who do you think is paying for the hosting costs of a popular video in this scenario?
Cuban doesn’t know WTF he’s talking about about at all, but if he wants to launch competition and pay for that, there is certainly an expectation that a return will be built. Ads all over the place.
What the hell is going on with his pinky finger?
All bad guys do weird stuff with their pinky when talking about money
Kids use tiktok and they don’t want something their dad built, however safe. They are migrating to rednote because it’s not safe.
Lol, this explanation is about as plausible as the “threat” of strangers offering me free drugs (which I must definitely say no to, rofl).
Yes what I was saying was that it is a safe unsafe thing, safe at least to them in any way that matters but still problematic to the people around them which is exactly the thing people want at that age. Seemed a perfectly reasonable thing to say, not sure why it’s downvoted so much.
Bcs kids like to experiment and grow, the dangers involved (as a side effect!!) being to them, not systemic risks to whole countries and the world.
If I did extreme sports as a kid my grandma wouldn’t get radicalised from my money spent on that.
If I support a shitty app from a shitty corp my grandma could get a higher chance of seeing shitty one-sided news of just whatever is profitable to that corp.Doing anything affects the world around you, so doing something that affects everyone & saying that you like the ‘danger’ doesn’t make sense bcs it’s not primarily towards you.
Thats why the problem ‘if you click this button you get a million monies but a random person is killed’ wasn’t made to debate the “danger” but rather morals of such a decision.
Because we can totally trust the oligarchs to build something safe for us.
Hey don’t dis our corporate overlords and owners. They provide us food and shelter, well, only if you do what they demand…
People never learn… Daddy gonna save them… Not
They are throwing a tantrum in the stupidest way possible.
The 200 iq move is to join it and tell them how cool it is. Then they won’t like it.
Eh. I tried this with TikTok. Didn’t work.
deleted by creator
