I never got why conservative got crazy if you specify a pronoun, but at the same time expect you to specify whether its, it’s Mr/Ms/Miss (and often don’t take Dr as an answer), looks like the same question
The pronoun rage is all secondary to targeting trans people. It’s less a matter of ideology and more about unifying their voters around a scapegoat.
Kind of an evolution of homophobia
Remember kids. Evolution doesn’t dictate that all changes “improve” the organism. They just increase the likelihood of survivability. Continuing the hate for just “gay” people was losing popularity and would have killed the conservative movement had it not evolved into a more esoteric form of hate.
Can’t wait for aliens to appear so they can stop hating humans
Yeah, if you’ve been around long enough the arguments are the same.
I don’t think most conservatives draw a meaningful distinction between being gay and being trans. These are folks who still view homosexuality as a mental illness and I’m fairly certain they see transsexualism as a closely-related mental illness, similar to the way schizophrenia is closely related to schizoaffective disorder.
I meant that transphobia has become the new trend among the right as there has been greater acceptance of homosexuality. There’s definitely still homophobic people out there but I feel like more people are willing to call them out.
Even amongst conservatives, I would wager the ones who are reasonable enough to accept gay people are reasonable enough to accept trans people. I agree with what you’re saying—the general trend is that a new minority group is first reviled and then gradually accepted; gay people had a hard-won fight, and trans people will too (although thankfully, I think trans people can ride gay people’s success on this front, at least a bit). I just think there’s a huge contingent of conservatives (mainly the Christian Right) that will never accept gay people and group trans people in with them, rather than seeing them as separate issues/groups.
This is exactly it. Trans people just happen to be their “other” at the moment.
They lost their minds back in the 60s/70s when women started using Ms instead of Mrs/Miss. Even into the 1990s, some conservative men were still butthurt about it. Rush Limbaugh was particularly offended over Ms Rodham-Clinton’s title and hyphen.
They lost the battle over women’s titles and the pronoun thing is their new hill to die on.
Don’t want to waste any time talking to a woman who’s already married, need to know that shit upfront.
If only you could like…ask? But I guess that’s the crux of the issue.
Do people you meet introduce themselves to you as Mrs/Ms X? Maybe if you work exclusively in/around schools…
Pretty sure the commenter was ascribing an intentionally dumb line of logic to conservatives.
I was
Welp. Lol and I normally catch those too. The good ones are the ones that usually getcha
This here - this isn’t anything new, people just forgot that they’re living through the same shit over and over again.
Add to that, how DARE a woman choose something, anything!
Because they don’t actually care about pronouns. What they are angry about is transgender and non-binary people being accepted as normal.
Everything else, the pronouns, the bathrooms, the medication, the sports, everything, is just pos-hoc justification for their real belief, which is that transgender and non-binary people should not be accepted as normal.
The cruelty is the point. Everything else is means to their ends.
It pretty much boils down to the fact that they are deathly afraid of change of any kind, because they don’t know what to think about anything until some authority figure tells them.
Hey, that’s not fair. They had authority figures tell them to be afraid and hateful, they aren’t waiting on it anymore.
Conservatives (with a lowercase ‘c’, I’m not talking about Republicans) prefer a series of small incremental changes over a longer period of time while progressives believe in big leaps. Both are valid viewpoints depending on the issue, sometimes we should take things slowly but other times we needed that change yesterday.
Asking titles has been around for a long time so conservatives are ok with it. It also conforms to their existing ideas about gender and roles in society.
Asking for pronouns is a relatively new thing and the whole debate around them is a big and sudden change (at least as far as they see), and it turns everything they believed in on its head.
Of course, there are people who are just plain hateful but I think there’s more nuance to it than that most of the time.
I’ve always thought “it’s okay because it’s old” is a pretty poor metric. It’s cheap but it’s accuracy isn’t very good.
It’s not really about that, sometimes conservatives also agree that a change is needed but they disagree on how to get there.
They see the current state as something that was built up naturally over a long period of time and everything has its place for a reason. Sometimes those reasons are not apparent immediately and making a sudden change will bite us in the long run in an unexpected way, maybe 100 years down the road.
They might agree that the status quo is bad but they think change should come gradually in small steps, allowing things to settle down a bit, and reflect on the consequences before moving forward. They might say that at least we understand the situation and the rules of what we have now, we shouldn’t stray too far ahead into the unknown.
For example, imagine that you live in a country under foreign rule. Should you start a war of independence and risk getting crushed or should you try to force concessions gradually over time and risk not getting anywhere? This is roughly the debate that took place in my home country in the 1800s.
While it’s true that the extremes are that conservatives want time to stay still while progressives want to burn the world down and reform everything in a single day, but most of the time people are somewhere in between, or even change their positions depending on the issue.
I mean. Maybe. But much of the time it’s like “hello I’m gay and I would like to live peacefully” and conservatives are like “whoa let’s not go crazy.”
It’s easy to argue for slow change when you benefit from the current state of things.
Also most conservatives in the US seem to be reactionaries or radicals that want to make sweeping changes like abolishing the DoE.
I’m not an expert on American politics but my impression is that there are a bunch of people with conservative attitudes towards change, and politicians know exactly how to play them.
They get riled up with the proper slogans and become what you have described. I’m not saying they are innocent victims here, they definitely should know better and everything they do is on them, but I still think this is mostly what’s going on.
Not conservative.
I’ve gotten very very used to being asked for titles on forms and the like. I’ve gotten used to respecting other peoples’ pronouns.
I have not gotten used to being asked for my own, and I don’t like it.
I understand that you can look just like me while having a gender identity that does not match my own—some men like to present in a feminine manner sometimes while still being men, and some people are non-binary, third gender, agender, etc. but might still dress in a very feminine way for whatever reason. To cover all your bases, ask pronouns, because guessing “she/her” at a feminine presentation in a body with a feminine shape won’t always be right. If you want to maximize your chances of being correct, you need to ask.
But whenever I’m asked, I also wonder if I’ve presented in a way that signals anything other than “woman” (which frequently but does not always line up with feminine presentations from feminine bodies). Did I just totally fail at presenting the way I want to and if forced to assume you’d guess I’m third gender, or are you being inclusive and considering that people who present like me aren’t always women? It’s the privileged, cis-woman version of “did you have to ask because I failed hard at passing, or did I pass and you just ask everyone this because not everyone conforms to the gender binary?” I’m really used to my gender being assumed and assumed correctly, and am not comfortable with people being unsure or even assuming wrong. I’m basically getting a microdose of what many non-cis, non-binary, and/or nongenderconforming people have to deal with, and I don’t like it.
I also understand it is probably for the benefit of most people (I’m aware of some non-cis people also disliking people asking pronouns, with reasons being along the lines of “please assume, I’m a binary trans person and asking makes me worry I don’t pass” or “I’m in the closet right now and asking my pronouns makes me choose between outing myself and misgendering myself” and it’s worth finding some solution for this) for asking to be normalized, so I let my personal discomfort and dislike go. After I ask if they asked pronouns because they honestly thought it’s super likely I don’t use she/her in which case oh god what do I change so I can make the assumption be that I use she/her, or if it’s just them trying to be inclusive and cover all bases which is good and respectable.
It might also just be that the person asking you just always asks. Because as you mentioned, only asking when someone “looks” trans or non-binary can be rather invalidating. So to avoid that, they just don’t assume.
For your last paragraph, I’m personally of the opinion that, short of de-gendering the language entirely, a good solution would basically just be a gender/pronoun badge, but stylised to be more easily readable from a distance. Like a bracelet or a necklace or something of that nature. That would eliminate the need to ask in the vast majority of cases, because the person would be wearing something that unambiguously signals the answer. And it would be completely detached from the presentation of their body, which might not match their gender, or their clothing, which probably shouldn’t be gendered anyway. Changing pronouns, for whatever reason like coming out or just being fluid, would just be a matter of swapping out the single symbol.
It’s not really feasible, of course, but even as a queer person I find asking and being asked quite clunky. But whenever I go into LGBT+ or geek spaces, I find that wearing a badge just sidesteps the whole issue.
We should use a pink triangle.
Easy to know who falls under the tag.
I can think of a few differences between a universally voluntarily chosen pronoun badge, and a pink triangle forced on queer people to mark them as other.
Either way makes it a really easy target identifier though, just saying.
By all means, don’t live in fear or isolation.
Unfortunately, the places where this would do the most good are also the places where they would be in the most danger by wearing one.
It doesn’t affect me either way, I am neither queer nor a hater thereof, it’s just a fucked up world right now.
Hopefully not for much longer though.
Also, can we address how weird it is that queer is the chosen word now?
They nailed reclaiming that word.
The idea would be that the badge would be worn by everyone. Which is why I said it isn’t really feasible.
My bad, I read it as everyone who had a different gender than sex, not everybody everybody
It might also just be that the person asking you just always asks.
did I pass and you just ask everyone this because not everyone conforms to the gender binary?”
… I already brought up that possibility :(
Yes. I wasn’t disagreeing with you or anything. Just saying what I thought would be most likely.
Damn. You’ve broken that down in a way that’s made me realize exactly why I don’t like being asked my pronouns (without me previously having actually thought through this exercise). Thank you for that! I’ll get over my discomfort with the idea, check my privilege, and answer the question next time.
Yes it’s called etiquette and respect. But they don’t want to respect queer people, so it’s not hypocrisy to them, it’s “tradition”.
I would say that conservatives are generally older folks. They spent their whole life learning things one way and then got to their mid to late life to only be told everything they learned was wrong or a lie. Now they don’t want to bother learning a new set of lies to only be told later on, that too was wrong. The younger generation needs to grandfather them in and let them pass on and only worry about the younger generations.
We need to get away from this thinking that conservatives are old and will die off to be replaced by young liberals/progressives
This was the line of thinking in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and probably before
Many people become more conservative as they age, and many people are conservative their entire lives
Tolerance and acceptance comes with interacting with people and getting out of your isolated safe spaces - not by being young
I think what you’re not understanding is the juice isn’t worth the squeeze trying to teach the old dog new tricks. Focus on the younger ones who are learning this the first time and more likely to be indoctrinated in this way of thinking.
Nick Fuentes is not an old dog. Or Shapiro, or Walsh, or Owens, or desantis, or ramaswamy… not all red teamers are old. Seriously, this is just bad thinking that’s been around since at least the 60s, it’s been two solid generations and somehow all the old people still haven’t died!
I don’t bother with either. If I mislabel, then it’s by accident and not meant as an offense, and if you get mad anyway, then there isn’t much for us to talk about anyways. It hasn’t come up yet, so I’m not going to worry about it.
Mr, Mrs, Ms really are not used much anymore. We have become much more informal in society.
I prefer being hailed with a greeting of ‘oi oi saveloy!’
I would do my best to accommodate that because that would be fun. I try to accommodate everyone’s request because it’s manners.
Its funny, my mom used to say ‘everybody has three names, the one thirm mom gave them, the one the like to be called and sorry, I didn’t catch your name’
Somw how it doesn’t apply to pronouns though that would be crazy.
Most people will respect pronouns. My best friend is trans and her fear is people wouldn’t. She’s had zero issues with it.
Americans are oddly respectful. It’s the way we are raised. They may shit talk you behind your back but in person they’ll typically be polite.
We had another co worker who has the same fear. Several people said they’d use her of old pronouns but in the end everyone respect her new pronouns.
They/them is the only one I’ve seen troubles with. I won’t use it because I screw it up. It’s not the way I speak. That’s the only one I’ve seen issues with. As long as someone sticks to he/him or she/her I’ve yet to see an issue in my social circle.
Its probably not that people are shit talking behind backs and more that the people who really care are extremely vocal. Everyone that is indifferent or supportive probably doesn’t have the need to bring it up every chance they get. They have other things that worry them.
A professor asked if I prefer “Miss” or “Mister” (because nb) and I accidentally said “ya boi” without thinking so now I have a professor that calls me “ya boi Rogers” every time I see him.
- yangire-mun, tumblr
I’m partial to “Yo!” myself.
Disagree. Prefix appears on almost all forms.
Prefix, last name, first name, other names, DoB.
I think this largely depends on what region you live in. In many parts, it’s still very common, while others it’s more limited to filling out forms.
I would now refer to every male over 40 as madame and see who gets offended.
Hey gurl, ey!
It’s choice. The problem is choice.
Seriously, not channeling the matrix here. You choose your pronouns. So they have to ask because of something you chose. And they don’t think pronouns are actually choosable. They think gender == sex and it’s a simple binary.
They tolerate Miss / Mrs because it’s a simple matter of not knowing. The person either is or isn’t married and you have to ask because you don’t know, not because you want to understand their unique identity.
Small-c conservatives don’t believe in unique identities. They want everyone to know their place. It’s really just another way of looking at the world. Some people prefer freedom with all its flaws. Some people prefer predictability with all its flaws.
And yes, fuck Republicans.
Because nobody is saying that their title is “Bunny.”.
