There’s no way the psychotic hardliners fascists in the Israeli government are going to pass up the “end game” that Hamas handed them. By destroying the sense of moral high ground worldwide, they’ve doomed themselves. They’re going to clear-cut gaza.
I am not saying either governments has the high ground. But I am commenting that Hamas fucked themselves! They’ve done away with the sympathy and protections that come with victimhood as they transitioned to embracing mass war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I’m still hoping the West Bank can escape the bulk of future Israeli war crimes and retribution (as much as possible), but I’m not holding my breath. I’d be shocked if Gaza was anything but an uninhabited wasteland after this. And again, I’m not endorsing that, just being realistic.
If they wipe out Gaza that’s 2.2million people to be “clear cut”. That’s not a good look no matter how much good PR a side has
Honestly the question is would anybody care enough to do something about it? I see headlines everyday finger wagging at bigwigs all across the world but nothing actually gets done to them.
If history is the guide, no one will intervene in the depopulation of a well armed country until the antagonist country makes international war.
Agreed, and I didn’t mean to imply they will kill them all. But some sort of mass deportation even if done over months, seems entirely possible.
What doesn’t seem plausible to me is them leaving Gaza even remotely habitable.
I think just turning off water and power is a crime. I don’t care for either government in this conflict either. I feel awful for any innocent civilian stuck in this mess.
There are 6 million people in Israel, of that about 2 million is Israel Palestinian.
There are a about 6 million people in Palestinian.
If Israel won’t let Palestine be a independent country, then the 4 million Isrealies and the 8 million Palestinians need to integrate and come to some South African truth and reconciliation level of cultural assimilation.
Not letting people be independent but making them second class citizens will never see a end to violence.
I think a truth and reconciliation would be amazing. But I’m a realist, just bc I want to believe that could happen doesn’t mean I can pretend there’s any chance it will.
FWIW I would love for you to be right and me to be wrong. I just lack any hope.
At the moment there is so much bad blood that I don’t think that the current generation can reach a truce. It doesn’t also help that neither of the sides is ready to make any concessions and without concessions long lasting peace would never be achieved.
Very sadly agree.
But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.
I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.
Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There’s no solution that’s going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they’d both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that’s not the world we live in.
If Palestine can’t have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can’t have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.
Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.
Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.
A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.
I agree on most points with you. But don’t forget we had the UN draw a line between both countries and declared their independence. The answer was a declaration of war to Israel, which they actually won and which resulted in an enlargement of the territory of Israel, which I don’t call fair or helpful in this conflict but understandable from the point of the “winner”…
I blame both sides for their actions but as long as the Hamas or the Hisbollah exist I can’t see any chance for peace and I really can’t blame Israel for fighting against terrorists. And please don’t forget the Hamas is also very responsible for the death of civilians in Palestine, this is actually part of their strategy and very welcomed by their leadership. Civilian casualties are always welcomed by terrorists because they create anger, desperation and rage and fuel their shameful cause even further.
A lot of these discussions get bogged down about who is right, who is wrong, who is morally justified. It doesn’t matter at the nation state level.
I’m not familiar with the UN enforced independence, I do know the UN secured the Gaza Egypt border for a period of time.
There are intransigent bad actors on both sides, religious extremists on the Palestinian side, and agitating settlers on the Israeli government side. So no matter what happens, there’s always going to be bad activities, that’s going to spark up more bad blood at the population level.
Hamas, absolutely wants to create civilian casualties on both sides, because it helps their recruitment, helps reinforce their mission, draws an attention internationally, gets them funding and weapons. Give us money look we stir shit up, we could stir shit up for you.
So going back to the real politic, the current situation is not going to be resolved with a military incursion on either side. I’m not sure who benefits from this situation long-term, but when both parties just keep repeating previous actions, they’re stuck in a loop.
Perhaps this latest activity Will be used to depopulate Gaza migrating everybody to the West Bank, we’re then hamas’s political power would be diminished. I think that would spur a lot more violence, but maybe clearing Gaza is more important than the violence. I’m not sure.
Israel purposely helped Hamas to power so there would be no moderate Palestinians to foster a peaceful solution.
They’ve been murdering Palestinians for decades already. And nobody gave a shit, why would they start now?
Now wipe out Hamas, that’s something I could get behind. All the best for the rest of Palestine.
edit: and someone actually downvoted me for not supporting child murdering terrorists. World’s gone to shit.
What Hamas did requires a response from Israel, and no amount of “truce now, k?” will be work. It’s sad, but the only course for Israel is to hit back, and hard. Anything less would be bending over and showing Hamas can do this again.
In other words, you can’t stab a person, and then go “whoa stahp” when the bleeding guy pulls a bigger gun on you.
Bystanderd will be hurt, but I hope it will be over quick and afterwards there can be a path towards something better.
Before you engage with what I said, be sure to read up on https://lemmy.world/comment/4385358
I wish Hamas could be eradicated, it would be the single best step for Palestine, and not far behind, Israel and the rest of the world.
I’m not expecting a clear cut, what I’m expecting is the annexation of the western edge of Gaza to gain effective control over all points of entry to be able to raise siege whenever they decide Gaza is being a problem.
After enough sieges trading in Gaza will become so costly just from risk assessment of having goods seized by the IDF that Gaza will have nothing left but the fish they’re able to get out of the Mediterranean. Anyone sending them weapons would be doing so at significant loss, and while running the risk of being put on international blast whenever they get caught.
Yeah having a slave labor force for manual labor has been pretty useful and I’m sure Israel isn’t in a rush to completely get rid of that.
Hamas has a lot of hostages now, including some high value ones from the IDF. They also severely humiliated the Israeli military and intelligence apparatus, reminding the world that Israel is not invulnerable and demonstrating that Hamas is a more formidable force than ever, which will help them get more international support. I think Hamas is in a strong position to secure concessions from Israel.
Really? I find that shocking.
I read it completely the other way, that while I am NOT claiming it , there is a possibility hardliners elements in the IDF and Mossad that allowed it.
I also don’t believe the hardliners in power give a shit about the hostages. They’ve been waiting for enough cover to clear out the entirity of Gaza while avoiding universal global condemnation–and now they have that chance. Plus Israel is now unified, the human rights voices will be as surpassed as US anti-wsr voices were after 9/11.
For the horrible fascist hardliners in Israel this is exactly what they want. And I think Hamas is done. The question is really what will happen to the innocent civilians? And also will the West Bank face any aggression and crimes (beyond the normal ones they regularly deal with)?
I really think this was the worst thing Hamas could have done, for themselves and the civilians who will suffer because of them.
The Netanyahu government famously traded over one thousand Palestinian prisoners, including some lifers, for a single live IDF soldier. There have also been significant trades just for captured remains. So, the precedent is that Israel will pay a big price to get its people back.
I suppose there is a non-zero chance that Israel decides to forsake the hostages, but I think the political cost would be too high. Also, that would really hurt IDF morale and discipline if there’s suddenly a new policy that they won’t negotiate your release if you get captured.
Something else to consider is that maybe Gaza kind of serves as a perpetual crisis that helps the Israeli hardliners maintain their grip on power. They might still want to keep it around.
You’d be quite wrong to think that.
Oh wow thank you for the detailed analysis.
A senior Hamas official said the group is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having “achieved its targets.”
Yep, Hamas managed to entrench both sides in their fucking atrocity competition, so Hamas and the Israeli right-wing can both hang onto power by the fear and hatred stirred in their populations. Great. Same time again next year?
Fucking scumsuckers.
After what happened, I don’t think Israel is going to allow Hamas to hang on to power. They are not going to allow Gaza to ever again be in a position to attack Israeli citizens, and that’s going to come at the cost of a lot of innocent Palestinians.
Sounds just like Putin saying they’re open to talks.
Just as a little reality check for all Hamas “fans” (Hamas not Palestine!!) out here which are actually comparing them to Israel or openly defending them. The Hamas is founded on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are a fairytale full of antisemitism and proven, false statements about Jews and how they are responsible for every bad thing that happens during the centuries and their diabolical plot for world domination (of course one of the favorite lecture of the Nazis)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Those idiots are really believing this fairytale and they use it to justify the murder of innocent people and Jews in general. So the next time you step in in defense of the Hamas or when you compare them to Israel, keep in mind that they are doing this because they believe in some antisemitic fairytale written by a crazy Russian back in the old days…they are basically Scientology only more degenerated and more violent.
You should also be asking the question–are Lemmy developers anti-semtic?
This whole situation has seriously caused me to reconsider a great many things about Lemmy. I can’t support lemmy, at all, if they are pro-murdering terrorist (Hamas, ISIS, et al). The lemmy.ml instance (run by the developers) has serious foundational issues and to me, I am wondering who it is that is writing this software, and who is paying them.
Just block lemmy.ml - who cares what the devs think. It’s an open source project.
It’s a problem for states that are supporting developers who are supporting terrorists.
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Kbin isn’t really a fork, but it does have a similar feature set.
If you were genuinely curious one of the devs has a massive manifesto. No need to speculate I’m pretty sure it covers every topic known to man.
I don’t recall seeing anything particularly antisemitic but I was honestly so dumbfounded I wouldn’t know where to start looking.
So I went back because I was curious. Again it is a fucking wild ride, I suggest yall search it out. I’m not gonna post it because I don’t wanna bring any unnecessary bandwagoning. But I searched for anti-semitism real quick and found this:
It proves absolutely nothing but it would be pretty weird to see the devs of lemmy cite anti-semitism as a reason Orwell was bad if they were also anti-semitic.
crazy, lemmy is dead to me after these posts. people need to know, it is unsupportable imo.
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Bro stop crying. The devs don’t profit from this like a private company would. Don’t use their instance, spin up your own, the project is open source and bigger than them. Your political grandstanding means nothing.
can you elaborate on this? I wonder if the situation is any other on a platform like reddit so I suppose it’s the people not the platform
From what I saw, there was one developer spouting some abhorant things, talking about how all Israeli citizens were targets at this point. I haven’t seen anything else about other developers sharing these views though so I’m considering it an isolated nutter until we see more
Lemmy has a huge tankie problem and it becomes really apparent when a situation like this comes up
Why tankies/leftists think Palestine is in any way aligned with them is beyond me
yeah I see this now, kind of frightening
Lemmy.ml is run by the developers on lemmy, and if you look at the modlog, it looks like the lemmy developers deleted comments then banned a shit ton of people who were not virulently anti-Israel. It is pretty shocking to me, as the anti-Israel stuff remained. Who are the developers, and who is paying them?
Move to another instance. Done.
Okay, then go back to reddit then
pretty much
Please state your sources…
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oh fuck right off with this poor attempt to derail the conversation! you know exactly what i’m talking about when I use the term antisemitism…
Sure, but they aren’t wrong. It’s anti judaic not anti semitic.
No it’s not, you’re dead wrong:
Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who interpret it as referring to racist hatred directed at all “Semitic people” (i.e., those who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabs, Assyrians, and Arameans). This usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus (lit. ‘antisemitism’) was first used in print in Germany in 1879 as a “scientific-sounding term” for Judenhass (lit. ‘Jew-hatred’), and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en
It really always amazes me how people like you are able top post really dumb shit like this while we are living in the age of technology where it is so easy to do a fact check in seconds from various trustful sources…I really can’t explain it, it’s either ignorance or you are doing it on purpose…
Nope, the etymology of “anti-Semitism” originates with one man named willhelm who used it specifically as a racial term though yes clearly a veiled commentary on Judaism. It didn’t however change the meaning of the word as used by its Creator.
Google it’s etymology and get back to me about how “people like me” are.
And the swastika was originally a religious symbol in Eurasia.
While true, it is a pointless fact that contributes nothing to the discussion as they are commonly used in a different way and understood by everybody. This is nothing more than derailing a discussion.
Across the planet actually, notably American native populations used it.
That’s my point. Using “anti Semitic” as anti judaic is soft propaganda.
Can you please just fuck off and leave me alone with your antisemitic bullshit and false statements? Nevermind there is a blocking function for people like you…
Anti judaic is what it would be, I’m not however bigoted in that manner. I hate both of these fucks and religion in general for excusing such behavior.
But no screech about how objective fact isn’t so because your fee fees got hurt by things I never said.
I want you to talk to 50 different people and ask them what “antisemitism” means. See how many even mention Arabs.
Arabic is a semitic language. This is like saying Bengalis and Irish folks are both of the same clade because Gailge and Bangla are both IE languages.
Real Putin energy here.
Beheads babies, kills 250 people at a music festival, rapes and murders women before parading them down a street, then proceeds to beg for a ceasefire when the “find out” phase begins
Edit: the babies claim is not confirmed
They’ve been living under an Israeli siege for over a decade and had a mature enough intelligence apparatus to plan a highly coordinated assault while living in a surveillance state… If you don’t think this wasn’t a calculated informed attack you’ve got your head up your ass.
I’m not condoning indiscriminate killing and rape of civilians and taking hostages, I also don’t condone the inhumane siege of Gaza that has been happening for decades. 50% of Gaza is under 18. That’s not because they’re popping out kids, its because you just don’t survive that long in that kind of environment, those are also deaths. Not graphic ones that make headlines, but lives were still lost. Its incredibly hypocritical to assume Israel’s shit don’t stink in this situation either.
I’m also queasy when I read the coverage of the recent attacks by Hamas, I also haven’t been living in a police state. Not saying this is the most effective way that they can achieve their objectives, but I can understand how someone growing up seeing violence, sickness and malnutrition for completely preventable reasons dehumanizes the people they see as being the cause of their situation and join or support an organization like Hamas.
Also, when Palestinians resist against Israel, I’m not sure many people are informed about the differences between what Israel’s actions are and the narrative it gives out. An example would be found in this Haaretz article covering how Israel systematically hides evidence of Arab expulsion.
I do think that Israel should stop its colonization of the West Bank, cease the blockade, and work towards a two state solution. But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.
But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.
The Israeli government no longer seems to care about the difference between the two.
they deserve what will happen next.
Nothing will change for hamas. Do the Palestinians deserve what’s happening now?
Israel is almost certainly going to overthrow Hamas which seems like something changing
There was a time when there was no wall, no blockade, and work towards two state solution. Do remember that Israelis lived inside of Gaza until 2005. Why do you think they raised the wall in west bank and left Gaza in 2005? They left them to self-govern and they elected Hamas and now you think removing walls is going to help solve the issue? What a naive way of thinking.
This is not “you are taking our land” issue, this is “every jew must die” issue to them.
I have sympathy for the Palestinian and Israeli civilians that are being murdered by both sides. Since 2008, Israel has killed significantly more Palestinians than vice versa https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, 6,000 Palestinian deaths to 300 Israeli deaths.
It’s the “deserve” part of your comment that I’m having trouble with reconciling when the amount of deaths and violent oppression has been so unbalanced against Palestinians. Yeah, Hamas needs to face consequences, but that’s not really what’s happening or what’s going to be happening. It’s going to be civilians that will suffer the most and Hamas will be fine when it’s all done.
It’s not hard to see, as horrible as Hamas is, how they can get recruits and support for their regime and how this escalated to this point. I don’t support what happened in any way, but I can see how things lead up to this.
And I’ve seen people say that Hamas fucked it up for Palestinians because now they lost the sympathy. Which is hard to not see as flawed when the sympathy hasn’t helped Palestinians for over half a century of violent oppression.
I’ll just leave this here.
I’ve said this before in this same thread but I will say it again: I think Israel needs to end the blockade of Gaza, withdraw from the West Bank, end the settlement policy, and negotiate with the Palestinian authority. But I have no sympathy for Hamas after what they have done and I hope they are completely destroyed as an organization.
Israel has refused to negotiate. Palestinian leadership has tried.
Man people downvoting you cause they literally just want their echo chamber and not facts.
Yeah, I would bet rumors have spread through soldiers trying to one up each other on how terrible Hamas is, but where there is smoke their might be fire.
We took hostages so now you should negotiate rather than genocide the entire Gaza strip.
Yeah, good luck with that.
So you’re saying Israel should glass the entire strip? Ok, got it.
Because collective punishment is totally ok and definitely NOT a war crime.
It’s not going to be a collective punishment. But also there won’t be any negotiation this time. That train has left the station long time ago.
Yup, I do not agree with either side, but I’m pretty sure Israël will be taking the scorched earth approach this time around.
Honestly, I just want this conflict to end. Pragmatically, that seems like the only way to actually end it.
Umm, no.
Is Israel genocides 2 million people, they will draw the ire from the entire Arab world and anyone with a shred of decency.
That would literally be on par with the holocaust.
Not if they give an evaluation warning a few weeks ahead of time
Sure. They would have to do that though and also ensure those in Gaza have the means to evacuate.
They’re threatening to starve Gaza into submission.
It’s not going to be a collective punishment.
What do you think it will be?
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LMAO come on, guess they didn’t expect the IDF to fight back 🤷🏽
Taking a shit in the public water supply, getting roughed up as people demand to know why you just shat in the only watersource, and then you tell them to chill and that you “got your point across” lmao.
Yeah sorry Hamas, no takesy backsies when you just murdered a bunch of civilians at a peace festival.
It’s like your brother just stole your favourite toy and then he’s like “ok now we can have a truce”.
Also murdered 40 babies in kfar aza, including beheadings.
Atrocity propaganda, the journalist tweeted that they overheard that from a soldiers conversation and reported it as fact.
No evidence yet it is true.
Huh, yeah looking into it, it seems like a rumor for now.
Might be something with a grain of truth but right now there is bodies, and they are starting to pile up fast enough we can’t count how many there were at the beginning. It’s amazing how quickly this has escalated into what people wanted anyway.
Except the toy was yours to begin with and your brother has been rubbing the fact he was able to steal it with outside support in your face while actively stealing more of your toys and you finally stood up and took it back from him.
Don’t commit genocide if you don’t want your own people genocided
It is so much more complicated than that. Both sides have done horrible things, but this last provocation was completely offside.
I wonder what other major event happened in the early 40’s? That also was Palestine the territory of Egypt and Jordan, not an independent Palestian state.
Misleading on purpose perhaps?
Again, it is so much more complicated than it appears.
Ah, so it “being complicated” means it’s ok for Israel to continue to steal land from the Palestinians. Gotcha.
Edit: and bomb refugee camps.
No evidence of 250 dead. Only videos of people running away and Israeli eye witnesses saying resistance fighters were kind to them.
Nice atrocity propaganda though.
I think he mean in the sense of hostage negotiations.
Practically speaking he’s right, Hamas got what they wanted by doing a day of raids for some bullet spray kills, a few IDF outposts, and taking hostages for negotiating power.
Whether or not Israel will actually decide to negotiate for anything is another thing lol.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure they’re way past the line.
Hamas fucked around, is finding out, and want to talk “truce?” What does a truce with a bunch of genocidal terrorists look like?
Not carpet bombing the Gaza strip, where 2 and a half million palestinians live I’d imagine.
If Israel was carpet bombing the Gaza Strip, we wouldn’t see hundreds dead. We would see hundreds of thousands dead.
Fair enough. They seem poised to try their best, I truly hope the situation de escalates and actual solutions are sought after.
That all depends on whether Hamas starts executing hostages and uploading the videos to the internet, like they’re threatening
Good question, should ask Israel the same thing.
Hamas fucked around and innocent arab palestinians are finding out.
Well, Hamas is who those innocent Palestinians chose to be their government
Some did. They don’t exactly hold elections, though.
Last time they did, Hamas won
My worry isn’t really the voters that were enfranchised then, ya know? It’s gonna be mothers with bloody infants that fuck me up. Or young men pressed into ‘service’. Or really any young casualties.
Then they should probably do something about Hamas.
I’ll donate an infant sized rifle.
Exchange prisoners for Hamas leaders, make Hamas say outright that they see Palestinian lives as lesser than their own.
If they actually have enough spine to take the deal, start a whole new Nuremberg trial and purge everyone down to the “just following orders” grunts and rebuild from there.
Revisionist history: https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/index.html
Let’s try this conversation again in 2 weeks.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oct 9 (Reuters) - A senior Hamas official said the group is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having “achieved its targets.”
Moussa Abu Marzouk told Al Jazeera in a phone interview that Hamas was open to “something of that sort” and “all political dialogues” when asked whether the Islamist group is willing to discuss a possible ceasefire.
The original article contains 61 words, the summary contains 61 words. Saved 0%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
0%. Bad bot.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oct 9 (Reuters) - A senior said Israel achieved its targets in a phone interview.
The original article contains 61 words, the summary contains 11 words. Saved 82%. I’m not a bot and I’m closed source!
Normally I find this bot terrible, but in this case, the source is so tiny there isn’t much for it to do.
