If concessions can not be made to save these lives even with the entire world watching, then I do not want to hear falsehoods about caring for human rights.
I’ve been very cautious to reserve the word “Genocide” because I didn’t want to devalue it with hyperbole. For years, I’ve said that Israel is ethnically cleansing historic Palestine. But reading this article… I think this is the point where it becomes genocide, full and proper.
It’s shocking to bear witness to.
By the UN definition, it’s been genocide for a long fucking time
Same UN which doesn’t consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization. So there’s that. And no, am not justifying what’s being done to civilians.
I have been unable to find a list of who the UN does consider to be a terrorist organization. Does the UN not call Hamas a terrorist organization because that’s just a term the UN doesn’t use?
He’s gonna have to check Facebook and get back to you on that.
The UN definitely acknowledges the existence of terrorists groups
I couldn’t find a list either but there’s not a lot of documents under the “Foreign terrorist fighters” category -> https://www.un.org/counterterrorism/un-documents
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I guess they’re not in the labelling-things-as-terrorists business, but there’s https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/content/un-sc-consolidated-list
Hamas indeed can not be found from this list, if I looked correctly. Which is weird, given how much more minor terrorist organisations and even individuals can be found from there. I’d say that it’s totally legit for Israel to point this inconsistency out.
And Biden, Blinken, etc have lashed themselves to the mast next to Netanyahu and Likud, promising a blank check no matter what.
Usually I’m OK with Biden (I think the way he handled Ukraine was pretty damn good) but this is a disastrous decision on our part.
I can only hope that his tough talk in public is covering for behind the scenes pressure on Isreal to have a ceasefire.
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Nobody is saying Israel shouldn’t defend itself, but this article is about a Hospital. Even in full on war attacking the opponents hospitals is a war crime.
Sometimes it’s almost like people see Israel or Hamas as their favorite sports team. As if anything they do is morally correct, just because “their team” did it.
I can’t get over how fucking terrible this is for everyone who is trapped there, due to absolutely no fault of their own. Even literal babies are dying.
Before anyone says “they were voted in”; sure. They were voted in many years ago. However, a large part of the population over there was way too young to vote at the time.
It’s sick that some deem other people’s lives as worthless, just because of location.
I can’t even begin to imagine the grief, loss, and suffering that’s happening to so many people. Any one of us could have easily been there too, it’s not like we can just pick where we’re born. You don’t work hard to pick a country of origin, you get what you get. Those innocent civilians are no more deserving of death than anyone else on earth. It’s sad that I half expect someone to reply and try to explain why murdering children is ok.
I don’t care if it’s Israel, Hamas, or the freaking Easter bunny. Murder is murder. War crimes are still war crimes. Those children are still dead.
Palestinians and their children are not the “bad guys”. It is possible to wage war against Hamas and NOT unarmed civilian palestinians.
It is possible to wage war against Hamas and NOT unarmed civilian palestinians.
And how exactly is that supposed to work?
Step 1) Don’t commit genocide.
Step 2) Be methodical and targeted. Include financial sanctions and incentives for other governments to cooperate.
Step 3) Don’t commit genocide.
Seems pretty fucking straight forward to me. Why do conservative shitstains always want to add genocide to everything?
The last time the US was attacked by terrorists it was domestic terrorists, and it’s happening basically every day.
The US has actually been warning them to not invade at least. They’ve told them not to make the same mistake we did by causing things to get a lot worse invading and turning the people against you as you murder their friends and family.
That said, we’re still providing aid and protection and likely won’t stop.
It is genocide either way by definition. Whether it’s cultural or straight murder.
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Children shouldn’t be punished for the crimes of crazy men.
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Gaza is only 25 miles long. The furthest away I could get from my neighbours right now would be the next town over, where 1 million people already live and there is limited food and water. Have some compassion ffs.
And bombing civilians is a war crime, so no, it doesn’t happen in a war zone.
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Someone else committing war crimes does not make it okay for you to do war crimes.
Both Hamas and Israel are doing war crimes and should be punished for it.
There isn’t anywhere safe in Gaza right now.
Like what Hama’s did? Ya, forget terrorists dont have rules didn’t you?
We aren’t talking about what Hamas did, obviously that wasn’t ok?
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Your logic is fucking brutal my guy.
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pretending that doesnt happen in a literal warzone isnt realistic
So as long as something happens in reality, no one should condemn it? Interesting logic.
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Cool projection bro. Is that 4K?
Maybe you aren’t aware, but Gaza is a prison. You can’t really leave it.
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Civilian Palestinians did not do any of those things. Thise were the acts of Hamas, not Palestinian children.
What an absolute nightmare. Those poor people are caught in the middle of a conflict they can do nothing about. It’s horrific.
I find it both horrifying and nauseating at the same time. This makes me sad to be a human being.
This makes me sad to be a human being.
and wonder why you don’t see more
The answer is in the video. The media rarely shines a light on those groups.
Sometimes they do though. Remember the media response to the Turkey earthquakes? I remember heaps of international rescue teams getting the spotlight.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
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Wait until you realize how many species we’ve driven to extinction, and how many more we have yet to kill, before we kill ourselves due to runaway climate collapse. That’s the shit that makes me sad to be human.
Human beings are just about the worst thing to happen to this planet.
I really hope israel will loose their wildcard and be accountable for all this shit. Just remove their privileges!
They won’t. The extermination of Palestinians has been a stated goal of Israel and its allies for decades.
They’re not going to be punished for pulling the trigger.
This is the full transcript of the recording between an Israeli IDF officer and a resident of northern Gaza
“Hello?”
“Muhammad?”
“Yes”
“How are you?”
“Yes”
"This is an officer from the IDF calling you. For your own safety I’m asking you to go to Khan Yunis as fast as possible "
“Where to?”
“In the direction of Khan Yunis. ASAP. I don’t want you to put yourself at risk, that’s why I’m telling you to go there.”
“All the roads are blocked”
“Where you are right now isn’t safe, you need to… blocked where? Who blocked it? Hamas?”
“Yes”
“What?”
“Yes, that’s correct”
“Where did they block the road?”
“At Salah ad-Din”
“Salah ad-Din?”
“Yeah”
“How did they block it?”
“They’re just forcing people to go back home”
“Are they putting cars on the road? Police cars or…”
“Yes yes”
“How exactly? Explain it to me. Please, did you see it with your own eyes?”
“In a car, people are going south and they’re just bringing them back home”
“How did they block the road?”
“They’re shooting at people”
“Shooting what? Are they shooting at people that want to leave?”
“Yes yes yes”
https://twitter.com/ItayBlumental/status/1717466384794300882?t=7HRQJ5h29HRlfhN1fCl3mQ&s=19
Wait… were you really linking twitter as though it’s a reputable source? If we accepted that and did that you know how much bullshit anti-Palestinian Israeli hardliner propaganda we’d see? Twitter is never a legit source for anything other than demonstrating what a Nazi Elon is.
I’m linking the source video lol
And then what did the IDF forces do to Northern Gaza?
Ask people to leave for their own protection before intense urban fighting
The Israeli policy of bombing first and asking later makes this impossible.
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You’re doing the same thing the Israeli war criminals do, trying to generalize all of a group as being homogenously behind the radical actors. Hamas is not the Palestinians, Bibi is not Israel.
You’re doing the same thing the Israeli war criminals do
Mass murder?
You mean the Israeli government and Hamas, right? Or were you implying that Bibi is all of Israel, but Hamas is not the Palestinians with a straight face? I hope Bibi and his henchmen are tried and convicted at the ICC just like Hamas and it’s henchmen as well!
Edit to clarify: Bibi is NOT Isreal. Hamas is NOT the Palestinians.
Israel=The Israeli govt. in basically every conversation within this context. Trying to say “but both right?!” When that’s what everyone has been saying from the start, makes you look like you’re acting in bad faith.
I’m only answering b/c I can’t tell if you’re serious, but on the off chance you are and care then it’s worth the effort.
NO Israel doesn’t automatically equate to their government in these conversations all over Lemmy. If you are assuming it does, and butting heads with people (or agreeing with people), it could be one of the causes of misunderstanding or disagreement. I’m not being sarcastic, not trying to pick a fight. Just letting you know that assumption could cause great issue when you’re being reasonable and talking to someone else reasonable.
Bad actors have a hard-on for generalizing and using it as a weapon, ESPECIALLY Hamas=Palestinians, and Israel=Jews=All Israelis. And it does nothing but disservice to anybody attempting to legitimately discuss and communicate.
I’ll ignore your implication.
That you’re an Israeli shill? I was trying to be nice about it, guess not. See how I use Israeli to refer to people? Since it’s Israeli citizens who lose because of an extremist Israel? Hamas are terrorists, Israel is an apartheid state. The citizens both groups have control over are suffering and your trying to conflate denouncing Israel and antisemitism. Stop.
It’s hard to go against them in the West.
The right hate Muslims so side with Israel.
The left hate to be called antisemites, so hand-wring over civilian deaths, but ultimately side with Israel.
Who are these voices on the “left” that you say are supporting Israel?
Biden
Biden is not the left lmao
True, but effectively on the political stage, he is the opposition. Understandable that non-politically online people/normal people call him left.
Agreed but you’re splitting hairs. My grandparents who voted for Biden aren’t really “the left” either.
My ex who i’ve convinced to switch sides on this issue but is too afraid to say anything publicly because she doesn’t think she knows enough of the history to take a stance isn’t really “the left”, but she voted Biden too.
Pretty much all of the Democratic leadership except Ilhan Omar.
They’re not leftists but they are “the left”
The “viable left” I suppose.
Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t that left either, yet you go to one Hamas Terrorist funeral, and suddenly you’re a terrorist sympathiser and out come the photos at election time.
Sure, you can be left in the West, but not in a way where you’ll get even a sniff of power.
And this is where you accuse anybody right of being a full communist of not being left enough, so we can save ourselves that interaction.
Keir Starmer?
Everything I read about this dude characterizes him as abandoning left wing policy in favor of center, center-right policy.
4th paragraph of his wikipedia page
His leadership has been characterised by movement towards the political centre and abandonment of the left-wing platform of his leadership campaign, as well as by opposition to some of the government response to the COVID-19 pandemic and issues such as Partygate
I just think it’s strange for you to insinuate that the position of the left is that of Israel’s.
Probably conflating support Israel’s right to exist, as supporting their current and past war crimes. Which is not the same thing. But for an anti-Israeli argument is a convenient false construct.
No one on the left is hand wringing over the civilian deaths but ultimately siding with Israel. Literally no one.
You recall that Hamas attacked Israel in the bloodiest assault in history, right?
You guys make me embarrassed to call myself a lefty.
Well gee, that sure does give Isreal the right to do ethnic cleansing. It’s self defense after all so everything is permissible. /s
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But you Hamas supporters
I don’t support Hamas.
and only care about Palestine because they’re brown
No, I’m just against ethnic cleansing, which is what Isreal is currently doing and getting billions of dollars in support for.
Isreal shouldn’t be doing ethnic cleansing, nor should Hamas.
Your white guilt is so fucking lame 😂
It’s really a sign of intelligence to assume things of people you don’t know and have only ever spoken to on the internet.
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It would be funny to debate against you morons if it wasn’t so pathetic.
Yep you sure showed that guy which person here is the moron… /S
Please keep insulting me. I’m becoming so convinced you’re right.
Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. They’ve been doing it for 50+ years.
If your knowledge of this conflict only goes back ~50 years, then there’s lots of cool and interesting history you can study! I encourage it.
The Gaza population has doubled in the last 20 years. If they are doing ethnic cleansing they’re doing a really bad job at it
Meanwhile Jews are banned from almost all Muslim countries
No one here is supporting Hamas. We support PALESTINE.
The intentional misunderstanding you’re feigning is disgusting. There was literally one statement, you recall that Israel was attacked. And you inserted your own pro-Hamas dialogue to condem that instead of the attack.
Do you understand the disconnect?
You can be against the Israeli government’s war crimes AND against Hamas’ war crimes. Try it, having principals instead of an agenda is freeing and might feel good to you.
And you inserted your own pro-Hamas
Saying that Isreal shouldn’t be killing civilians and doing ethnic cleansing is not pro-Hamas.
Neither party should be doing those things.
You can be against the Israeli government’s war crimes AND against Hamas’ war crimes.
I am.
Try it, having principals instead of an agenda is freeing and might feel good to you.
Perhaps you could try not assuming the worst out of people you don’t know.
In the context of the guy asking if you remember that on the 7th Israel just suffered a horrific terrorist attack and instead of saying yes I remember it, I condemn it, and that was horrible. And following up with that doesn’t make it right for Israel to kill civilians either. Which is a statement I completely agree with.
Instead by refusing to acknowledge the question and just jumping to IDF war crimes, it reads like whataboutism.
I’m only explaining in case you genuinely care to communicate more clearly. Look we both agree that the 7th doesn’t excuse what’s happening now in Gaza. But it wasn’t clear that you condemn Hamas’ crimes because you ignored that guy’s question.
Cheers man
it reads like whataboutism.
If you have problems with me saying ‘Isreal’s crimes are wrong’ without clarification about Hamas being bad as well then you should have first had problems with the guy saying “Hamas attacked Israel in the bloodiest assault in history”, implying everything Isreal is doing is morally permissible.
Dude, in RESPONSE to someone asking you about a horrific terrorist attack and war crimes by Hamas.
If you really don’t understand, I don’t know how to help you. And if you’re just trolling, I’m done feeding. I tried to help you.
The intentional misunderstanding you’re feigning is disgusting.
The pot calling the kettle black
Hamas doing something horrible doesn’t make it OK to starve the entirety of Gaza though, not everyone inside Gaza is Hamas
Speaking of, Hamas has over 1MM liters of fuel, and ample supplies of fresh water, that they refuse to distribute in Gaza. They also refuse to return hostages, which would also immediately lift the siege.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas/
Edit to add:
The reason they stockpiled so much is their tunnel ventilation systems run on generators (which is also the reason Israel is trying to deny them fuel, because tunnel fighting is a nightmare and that’s what is coming)
Here’s a great video with more info https://www.youtube.com/live/xfc0nHLgDuY?si=8P-MddAIFXsFt-mA
Terrible thing Hamas has done
Hamas doing something horrible doesn’t make it OK to starve the entirety of Gaza
Terrible thing Hamas is doing
It’s not unreasonable to expect an enemy government to feed their people, rather than your country
Hamas doing something horrible doesn’t make it OK to starve the entirety of Gaza
I mean we can copy the same comments to another over and over all day if ya want.
I’ve got 3 hrs til my plane boards
FWIW I’d strongly support a heavily-militarized aid station set up in the south but you know as well as I do that people would still blame Israel for Hamas gunning down people headed south.
Palestine is protecting and aiding Hamas, though.
I watched the Palestinian Prime Minster last night refuse to condem the 7th. Dude, just what a sick fuck. He LITERALLY couldn’t say killing civilians is not okay. Sometimes I wonder who Israel is supposed to negotiate with, I mean this shitbag being warcrime adjacent can’t be any more helpful than the war criminal Bibi.
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Bloodiest assault in history? You have to be joking.
Uhh yeah? This is the bloodiest attack Palestine has ever done against Israel. Are you stunned? 😂
Forget the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians that Israel has killed. Those don’t matter at all in the context of your very well thought out point.
Moved the goalposts and you’re still wrong.
I’m demonstrably right though 😂
Wrong and ratio’d
Being one of the only lefties with common sense, I get ratio’d quite often. But I don’t need fake points from imaginary online friends to feel good about myself 😂
Apologists and justifications ARE support for Hamas. Pretending otherwise is intellectually disingenuous, or outright intentionally dishonest.
(x) Doubt.
Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Hamas is responsible for this all. They can end it any time they want, release the hostages and surrender, but they chose not to.
“Look at what you made me do!”
Hasn’t Israel been killing them since LONG before they took hostages? Why would release them suddenly make it stop?
Prior to early October, Israel was completely out of Gaza, and was not attacking Gaza whatsoever, so no they weren’t killing them long before they took hostages.
Also the entire siege is about trying to force Hamas to give up hostages. That is literally the reason it is being done. Hamas also has massive food, water, and fuel stockpiles they refuse to share with the people they “govern”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas/
Also they’re using that fuel to power the ventilation systems in their tunnels that run on generators
I urge you to get your source not from literally the entity being excused of genocide (or its direct allies e.i. US news outlets). they have enough money to throw so much propaganda at you that you would never believe anything else.
from one online stranger to another: using and citing sources as such is an instant discredit.
I’m gonna go ahead and keep listening to the people who aren’t literal terrorists.
well then, again, I urge you to change your sources if you don’t want to listen to terrorists
You get that the history of Israeli and Palestinian relations goes back further than October of this year, right?
Yep.
How many Palestinians did the IDF kill in an average year before October?
I’ll look up any data you want, if you’ll acknowledge that without the Iron Dome, casualty comparisons would be wildly different.
I have severe issues with some of Israel’s past actions. The invasion of Gaza in the teens was an incredibly poor choice. Hamas has bombed Israel 7,000+ times in the last 2 weeks, Israel just has top tier defenses against rocket attacks
That doesn’t make what they’re doing now wrong, or give Hamas a leg to stand on.
I wonder what the US would do if the Mexican government launched 7,000 missiles at us.
Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Israel is responsible for that.
Everyone can always blame someone else, especially in this conflict. It’s time for Israel to grow up and take responsibility for its actions. They have caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people. Somehow we (the US and most of the west) provide them with resources and weapons though. How fucked up is that?
Then by that logic it’s fair game for native Americans to start cleansing all European bloodlines in the United States? As a Latino person, I can go into any southwest state and start killing my neighbors because their ancestors “caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people”?
How are you tankies this fucking dumb?
But they’re STILL causing them harm and anger and using terrorism, right now, actively, even before the 7th of october, it’s been ongoing for over 75 years, it hasn’t stopped once, its been happening everyday in Gaza and the West Bank (where Hamas isn’t), besides the fact that the occupation power very explicitly stated its intentions of basically deleting every single Palestinian, even before the 7th of october.
other than the starvation and thirst they’re forcing onto them, they keep bombing civilian buildings, they bombed multiple medical centers including a hospital where over 1000 people (injured civilians from the occupation’s bombings), over half of which were children, toddlers, and babies died.
and to top all of that off, from https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
Article 8, section 2.b: 2.b.i. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
2.b.ii. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
israel is committing war crimes and being praised and supported for it.
nothing justifies the intentional or unintentional killing of any civilians, children, women, or men, EVEN IF THE ENEMY WAS KILLING CIVILIANS TOO!
Let’s also not forget that israel is one of the largest and most powerful military entities in the world, supported by even larger military powers, going against this tiny patch of land called Gaza, where the people there have been continually oppressed for over 75 years, Hamas’s homemade mortars dont do nearly as much damage as israel’s US-made targetted missiles, and it’s obvious from the fact that no building has been brought down in israel by Hamas, while Gaza is being basically flattened as we speak.
Do some research before posting online.
No, dude. I’m not saying what Hamas is doing is “fair game”. I’m saying Israel has a responsibility in it, and they aren’t handling it well. In the past, I totally understand native Americans killing settlers, especially on their land that was promised to them in treaties that they agreed to when moving. Present day, this stuff isn’t happening. If anything, we’re trying to make up for those actions that we now see as a mistake. In present day Israel though, they’re actively performing those actions that cause the inhabitants to feel the need to fight back.
Also, not a tanky. Not everyone who disagrees with Zionism is anti-semitic or a tanky. Grow up and try to come up with an actual reasonable argument.
Hamas has launched in the realm of 7000 rockets at Israel civilians since October 7. But hey, keep blaming it all on Israel. Lets make antisemitism cool again, you are doing your part already.
And as always: Propose an alternative to how Israel should defend itself instead. Still haven’t heard anybody give one and it has been weeks.
Why did you start counting at October 7th? Palestine, Hamas, and Israel have existed much longer and been in conflict much longer.
Last I saw, which was before this conflict, Israel has killed 27 (I think, maybe 23 or something around there) Palestinians for every Israeli killed.
Last I saw, which was before this conflict, Israel has killed 27
Is that a reliable figure?
It was UN data. I assume it’s as reliable as it can be. I’ll try to find it again.
Edit: 22.4x here.
All right, thank you for the source. It indeed seems reliable.
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What happened in 2014 and 2018?
Yes.
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Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense. How can you read an article like the OP and just be completely empty inside? How broken are you?
Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense.
For one, they don’t.
And as always: Propose an alternative to how Israel should defend itself instead. Still haven’t heard anybody give one and it has been weeks.
But keep listening to that Hamas propaganda it’s totally not rotting your brain away.
An alternative? There are infinite. They can start cooperating and make a good will gesture of returning occupied lands back to the Palestinian people. They can stop colonizing and murdering innocent civilians (which isn’t only just now happening, it’s constant in occupied lands). They can loosen restriction on travel between Gaza and Israel.
The solution is to improve relations with the people. Attacking them and killing civilians only causes more hate, which causes more violence. It isn’t defence. It’s genocide. They get Hamas to attack and they get to kill more Palestinians.
They tried that, didn’t work, each time they were meet with more Hamas terrorism. What’s your second suggestion from the pool of infinite alternative?
Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense.
Only Hamas is doing that, though.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
What Isreal is doing absolutely falls under the category of genocide.
Kill civilians is indefensible.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
A 48 hour WW2 era artillery barrages would flatten the Gaza Strip. Believing that Israel is “indiscriminately bombing” the strip requires you to believe that they’re the most incompetent military force to have ever walked the planet.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian population centers and diving out people based on ethnicity.
These two things are mutually exclusive
Would you prefer we call what Israel is doing ethnic cleansing instead?
That’s probably what they would like to do in their fantasies – make Gazans gtfo from that general area – but given their inefficiency of doing it, I don’t really know what’s going on. You don’t “ethnically cleanse” a rapidly growing population of 2 million by killing a few thousand here and there.
Their birth rate is about 24/1000, so about 50000 new children are born there every year.
Evil is as evil does. There is never a justification for attacking civilians.
“Stop making me murder you!”
“Stop defending yourself while I murder you”
Propose an alternative solution if you don’t like what IDF is doing, since otherwise all you are doing is nothing more than revoking their right for self defense.
Israel doesn’t give two shits about the hostages. If they did they wouldn’t keep bombing where they are being held.
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Why did they take hostage?
Because Hamas’s stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and they knew their attack would be met with reprisal, so they took hostages as human meat-shields
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
Hospitals in Gaza are ceasing to function because they are running out of water and fuel for generators, while being overwhelmed by huge numbers of casualties and civilians seeking shelter from Israeli bombing.
No new fuel has been allowed into Gaza since the 7 October Hamas attack on Israel, starving hospital generators as well as the desalination and pumping plant essential to the water system.
Video posted on Tuesday showed the Indonesian hospital in north Gaza in total blackout after the generators failed, with the sole illumination from mobile phones.
Tanya Haj-Hassan, a Canadian-based paediatric intensive care and humanitarian doctor who helps run a western support network for Gaza health workers, said a third of hospitals in the territory had ceased to function.
Another member of the western support group, Omar Abdel-Mannan, a senior paediatric neurology resident at Great Ormond Street children’s hospital in London, said: “Doctors on the ground are using minimal anaesthesia so they can economise on it.”
Medical experts from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) visited hospitals in Gaza on Tuesday and confirmed the dire reports from doctors on the ground.
The original article contains 1,174 words, the summary contains 187 words. Saved 84%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Holy fuck, Lemmy is being brigaded by the pro-israel trolls.
These are warcrimes, and Hamas and Bibi should be held accountable for them!
Don’t know if this thread was linked elsewhere but the shift in sentiment in newer posts are jarring
I don’t know where you get that from, all comments in this thread are critical of Israel…
Indian BJP spammers: “Finally, a worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary!”
Hamas really really fucked up this time.
You realize that this is the EXACT outcome they would have expected right? You think Hamas expected Israel to surrender to paragliders? This was what they WANTED to happen. Now the whole world is watching Israel losing their shit on civilians and their international support is crumbling all around them. Hamas doesn’t give a shit about the palestinian people, but they do care about getting Israel into a position to be openly attacked by its Arab neighbors without the US and Europe coming in to fight on their behalf. It looks like that plan is actually going pretty well.
Isreal has the most support it has had in decades. They have widespread support to remove Hamas, or at least seriously damage Hamas, from most of their allies.
The US and Canada are both backing off. Who is coming to thier aid?
The U.S. is about to dump billions in military aid for Isreal.
Here’s France:
Amid fears the fighting to spiral into a wider regional war, French President Emmanuel Macron arrived in Tel Aviv on Tuesday and told top Israeli officials that he came “to express our support and solidarity and share your pain” as well as to assure Israel it is “not left alone in the war against terrorism.”
Support from the US has literally never been higher lmao
You, my friend, are stuck in a bubble if you think this.
“Stop making me murder you!”
That’s a pay for supporting terrorism
You sound like a highly educated individual
Ahh yes. All of these children getting killed is justified.
you’re just cringe and illogical at this point, these aren’t military hospitals.
Even if they were military hospitals, bombing military hospitals is a war crime.
Further proof Hamas terrorists hate Gazan Palestinians as much as they hate everyone else.
*People are downvoting because they refuse to admit Hamas terrorists use Palestinians as shields only; without a care for civilian safety as a tool to protect themselves.
This is the thing. Palestinians aren’t treated as humans, but as tool or a weapon.
Even the countries that supposedly support Palestine, not a single of them offers to take refugees.
The truth is they hate Palestinians too (wrong Muslim sect) they just hate Jews a little bit more than them, but they have no problem if both kill each other.
What do you mean? The majority of palestinian are sunni muslim like the majority of arab countries and the vast majority of palestinian refugees outside of palestinian territory/israel are in the neighboring arab countries (albeit in horrible living conditions in refugee camps most of the time).
WTF are you talking about?
Those countries don’t offer to take them in because they will not be let back after this is over.
The majority of Palestinians are sunni, and even if they weren’t, that never really mattered to any country besides Iran.
And the countries of the Levant are known for being very secular, unlike Isn’trael.
Again, treating them like tools.
If a country is accepting refugees it is assumed those people will live in your country. Those countries won’t accept them as refugees, because they hate them, and don’t really want to help, they want Israel to burn, and if it takes Palestinians with them “even better”.
That’s the truth, about “supporting” Palestine by those Muslim countries.
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wrong Muslim sect
Where did you pick up that idea? Most Palestinians are Sunni just like their neighbours.
Sorry. I oversimplified it. The ethnicity (and racism) and also prior experience helping also matters.
Supposedly Egypt is also Suni, but not only they don’t want let refugees in, or even accept the Gaza strip. US had to negotiate with them to let humanitarian aid in.
Iran which looks like it had part behind this attack and supposedly are supporters of Palestinians, similarly won’t do anything to help.
Their sympathy with Palestine is only when western cameras are rolling.
It’s simple to see why no one wants Palestinian refugees. Last time countries accepted them they had a civil war on their hands. This way everyone lets Israel take the blame and pretend not to notice.
wrong Muslim sect
There’s a bit of that but only as far as Lebanon is concerned, because Hezbollah is Shia and Palestinian Muslims (and especially Hamas) are mostly Sunni and there will likely be a fight for power between Hezbollah and Hamas if the latter ever infiltrate Lebanon, because for the past 13 centuries there has never been peace on the same soil between Shia and Sunni armed groups, which is why Lebanon is not opening its doors to Palestinians.
With regards to Egypt, sect isn’t really the issue as both are Sunni. However, the military that is ruling Egypt has a very rough history with the Muslim Brotherhood (which was very violent back then, almost nothing to do with Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood) from which Hamas was born, so they likely don’t want Hamas terrorists infiltrating Egypt either.
So neither Egypt nor Lebanon want Palestinians as they’re placing their security and more importantly their political interests above Palestinian lives.
even if that was true, the other side could just stop hitting the shield all the time and do precise targeting.
It’s true.
“Stop making me murder you!”
Hamas hasn’t yet released the fuel they’ve been hoarding?
Have they been hoarding it in the hospital?
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You know all about their fuel stocks? You must work for the CIA or something.
Why will none of the Arab countries provide shelter for refugees and help them? They are vocal about how horrible the situation is and have the ability to assist by taking in refugees, but do nothing except make sure it goes on and gets worse.
Yeah, why don’t the Palestinians give up and just accept being ethnically cleansed? I mean, they’re Arabs why don’t they just move in with the other Arabs, they’re all one big homogeneous group, right?
Somewhat ironically, the biggest impediment is Hamas mission to genocide the Jews.
Civilians taking refuge away from a war zone is not being ethnically cleansed. FFS. Regardless of whether you think children should be stuck in a warzone,for whatever sick reason, I’d like to see the civilians evacuated.
And if they are not let back in who will hold Israel accountable? Many of the people being bombed refuse to leave their homes for this very reason (as well as the south getting targeted by bombs/no shelter/no supplies either way so might as well keep whatever semblance of dignity they have left). They don’t trust Israel to allow them to return home due to historical precedent.
Those who don’t want to leave can stay, others shouldn’t be forced to become meat shields in a war they didn’t want.
Having all your civilians become collateral between the terrorists war crimianls they elected and the war criminal IDF isn’t going to hold Israel accountable.
That’s the point. Get the civilians out of there.
Tell that to the people that refuse to leave their house due to what I previously described. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. The average resident of Gaza was about 1 year old at the time. This conflict did not start yesterday. The Gazan population does not trust the international community to protect their right to return and they sure don’t trust the Israelis.
Right now, civilians don’t have a choice to leave the warzone. That’s intentional thaks to Hamas, Netanyahu, Egypt, Jordan, etc.
IDC if someone wants to die for dirt. But at least let people who want to save their children, their families, and themselves to exit to safety.
I’m NOT saying force people who want to stay in a warzone over land to leave. I am saying FFS let the ones who want to leave get out. Which they currently can’t do.
You can’t carpet bomb civilians then blame a country for not accepting 2 million refugees. Leveling the sector with air strikes is not a requirement.
Right now, civilians don’t have a choice to leave the warzone. That’s intentional thaks to
Hamas, Netanyahu,Egypt, Jordan, etc.Ftfy
If it was any other country your argument would be substantive. But we are talking about Israel and Palestine. Anyone who leaves will not be able to return. That’s how it’s always been. And for the Palestinians, their land is their existence. They will not give it up. They know the second they leave, it’s been lost.
And I said fine let those who want to stay do just that. But people who want to leave have a right to be able to do so.
My only argument is that people who want to leave should be able to. These nutjob radicals in here are literally downvoting opening a corridor for refugees who DO want to leave to be free of a warzone.
It’s insane how fucked that is, that anyone would even argue against giving them the option. And it makes their motives highly dubious and likely their arguments disingenuous and politically motivated.
Funny thing - Israel did exactly what you’re suggesting. They told Gazans to flee to Egypt via the Rafah Crossing, then Israel bombed the Rafah Crossing.
Uhm, in the article you linked there is only Hamas claiming there were bombings on Rafah Crossing. It doesn’t have any proof or source that is showing the bombings did indeed happen.
Because they shouldn’t have to leave their homes.
I get that. Hell they shouldn’t have Hamas using them as shields either just bc they elected Hamas. I get it.
But “shouldn’t have to” and reality are clashing. And if the option is refugee or civilian deaths then I’d rather they lived.
It would be mathematically impossible for them to have elected Hamas since 50% of them are 18 and younger, and the last election was held over 17 years ago.
And the reason the last election was held so long ago was that after Hamas won elections in Gaza, the west supported a coup that failed and entrenched Hamas in power.
I’d debate that with you, but it distracts from the point. Civilians need a path to refuge and not be forced to stay in rhe Hamas/Israeli warzone.
If they want to stay, go for it. But lots of people who don’t want to see their families die, have no way out by design and to the delight of both Hamas and Netanyahu.
You do realize this is advocating for genocide - the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.
I think at this point, the genocide is in progress. Like the caregivers in this article, what we’re discussing is triage.
I think it’s unconscionable to evacuate the Gaza strip, because we all know that the intention is to never allow the refugees to return. But I would like the Palestinians of Gaza to have the option to choose whether to survive in exile or die in their homes.
I believe that the Palestinian identity can survive in a diaspora. But that’s all academic. These people deserve the option to escape, even regardless of what it means for the future of their ethnic group. It’s a painful choice, but it should be there’s.
If some decide to stay, what happens to them? Does the world condemn them to death because it’s too problematic to deal with? Does the world force them at gunpoint? Israel has the power to stop this, it’s the easier path.
But I would like the Palestinians of Gaza to have the option to choose whether to survive in exile or die in their homes.
Oh wow, how magnanimous of you.
Saving their lives is not advocating for genocide. Giving civilians no exit a warzone is. How is that unclear to you? I can’t tell if you’re just trolling at this point.
It’s 2.2 million people. It’s a logistical nightmare. Any country/countries that take them in will have a drain on their resources. They will need aid. Or, just spitballing here, Israel could just stop.
Civilians taking refuge away from a warzone is how the Jewish Diaspora began.
So you are arguing that people who want to leave a warzone shouldn’t be allowed to?
Just oof, that’s a terrible take. Please clarify if that’s not the case.
At least I’m not arguing in favor of the warzone.
@rivermonster most of them are not vocal about it right now. Many of them have normalised relations with Israel in the last few years.
They also hold the belief that allowing Israel to chase all the Palestinians out of Palestine and grab the land would be the end of the Two State Solution, turning the latter into permanent refugees.
In practical terms given Israel’s blockades the only country in a position to take them is Egypt.
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Egypt already hosts 9 million refugees, taking another 2 million would be politically unpopular with voters.
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Egypt is also afraid of ending up in a border war with Israel (which would happen if any of the new refugees attacked Israel).
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Egypt also wants the Two State Solution
Here is an article that might interest you: Why Egypt Won’t Open The Border To Its Palestinian Neighbours
Other nations absolutely could petition to take them in and should. They could, at the very least, petioon Israel to allow them to provide refuge, but they dont bc they like things the way they are. I understand why, including it being politically advantageous for all of them and unstable governments, and nobody wants the terrorists hiding among the civilians.
That’s rather rhe point, Israel can’t commit its war crimes without the assistance of Egypt, and honestly the all the other Arab nations who clutch their pearls. It’s so upsetting to see so many horrible and disingenuous actors in this from the Bibi/Hamas alliance (and theynare bed fellows) to Egypt and the rest of the nations who could help but instead clutch at their pearls and feign outrage.
@rivermonster I always wonder whether people who want “Arab nations” to take in more refugees are also petitioning their own representatives to take in more themselves.
Pretty much all the biggest refugee-hosting nations are poorer nations.
Nevertheless, this article might give you food for thought: The Growing Significance Of Malaysia and Indonesia’s Non-recognition of Israel.
Oh, I’m with you. Fuck my own country for not taking them in. I’m in the US. Our southern border is one endless crime against humanity. I literally petition my rep and both senators regularly about violations to our consititon and international law that occur here. It is a source of shame for anyone of conscience who lives here.
@rivermonster yeah that’s getting really bad lately.
I’m in New Zealand and I want more refugees from everywhere, including Palestine. It’s frustrating.
Turns out Children of Men is the most prophetic sci fi.I feel you, I argue for both immigration and asylum to be opened and increased in the US. I regularly am so depressed and dismayed that we aren’t even honoring international agreements and law around asylum for those fleeing innumerable horrors.
I’m very ashamed of my country on this issue.
@rivermonster to be fair to the US it didn’t actually sign the UN convention on refugees that the rest of the West signed. But I still share your frustration.
I wish we could all work together on this stuff. Instead we have had some shining examples recently of how countries who do take people from warzones get left to take a huge hit, like poor Bangladesh struggling alone to administer Coxs Bazar (the biggest refugee camp in the world, now home to the Rohingya), or the Kurds who bizarrely were left trying to feed and shelter surrendered ISIS fighters from all over the world.
Realistically a governments first responsibility before anything else is the physical safety of it’s citizenship.
If you know a percentage of a population are religious extremists which will never integrate into your society and will probably pose a risk, then how can you, as a government, take them in?
It’s a hard sell any way you slice it.
AND refugees camps are awful. The Syrian refugee camp is a nightmare and forgotten by the world atm. But it should still be an option to seek asylum vs. staying in a wazone. Asylum from life threatening warzone and conditions us a human right.
I agree with you that there’s terrible challenges get and not trying to sugarcoat it. But right now, it’s simple, the world is failing to make sure those who want out can get out. And it is a crime.
Giving asylum is also not equal to citizenship.
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The people who will leave Gaza are never gonna be let back in. The neighboring Arabic countries already have lots of Palestinian refugees.
I definitely don’t think any land is worth the deaths of civilians while Hamas uses them as shields for their terrorism and war crimes, and Isreal commits war crimes of collective punishment, etc.
Letting kids and civilians die in an active warzone is madness. I condemn the partnership of Bibi and Hamas (who’ve been bedfellows since they first got him elected) and just want to save civilians and prevent more atrocities.
If that’s the attitude of everyone the whole world will be colonized and subjugated by imperialists. There will be a point where you cannot run anymore. Let me ask you a question, what would you do if this happened to you?
Jordan won’t take them because the Palestinians assassinated their king, created a civil war in Jordan, and tried to assassinate their next king.
Lebanon won’t take them because they keep joining Hezbollah.
Egypt won’t take them because they keep joining up with Muslim Brotherhood and trying to destabilize the government.
Syria won’t take them because they’re in the middle of a civil war.
Iran won’t take them because they’re more useful as a tool to destabilize Israel.Am I missing anyone?
Because the neighboring countries did that in the past in various forms and it fucked them all up in some manner. These are not normal people. They’re twisted by decades of living under war or terrorist rule. Their population is so young because everyone old died that half the people alive never actually experienced a stable life. They know nothing but this. As a result they are really hard to integrate.
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Because then they risk becoming the target of what Israel buys with the 50 billion dollars Joe Biden just sent to them.
Edit: if to of
Blame the world’s leader and the people that think they should be supporting them.
Take matters into your own hands. Change is now if you make the change. Live for reality and not tradition. Bring on the war.
Imagine saying this shit when powerless children are being butchered by israeli bombs…
how heartless some people have become
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Man… you got problems.
It’s not really up to us foreigners. We could send them fuel but Hamas would just confiscate it.
