• Sanity_in_Moderation@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    She will once again campaign only in states where it is possible to flip to Trump. Instead of safer states where she could get 5% of the vote and thus qualify for matching funds for the green party.

    That is how you know it’s completely bullshit and she is being run as a spoiler candidate for Trump.

    Well that and the picture of her and Michael Flynn sitting at Putins table at a Russian state dinner in December of 2015.

    • AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      How tragic is it that there isn’t even enough enthusiasm to maintain a genuine, non-astroturfed or political spoiler based environment first party and platform?

      As pissed off as some are, anyone myself included not getting arrested trying to protest/sabotage oil lines aren’t taking the destruction of our only shared habitat we all rely on literally from one breath to the next seriously enough.

      I know I know, we don’t need to breathe, we don’t need crops or fresh water, we just need more jerbs and a stronger economy to drop dead in. Lol, humans, I’d say nothing of value will be lost, but we aren’t just killing ourselves. And as projections continue to worsen, and our circumstances grow more dire, all the other species that had nothing to do with what we did will barely enter our collective minds as we languish in self-pity, as if the once bountiful Earth we raped, pillaged, and burned somehow betrayed us instead of the other way around.

      • TechyDad@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Part of the problem is the First Past The Post system. Any third party will just bleed votes away from the closest major party. In the case of a party dedicated to protecting the environment, this means votes taken from the Democrats. If the third party grows too powerful, they will split too many votes with the Democrats and Republicans will take control. And once that happens, the environment will be trashed. (Well, trashed even more than it already has been.)

        If we switched to Ranked Choice Voting or Approval Voting, you could vote for a third party and still pick a major party candidate as your fallback position. So you could theoretically vote for Jill Stein (ignoring all the other problems with her) and vote for Biden as your second pick (or third or fourth). When Stein failed to get enough votes, your vote won’t be wasted, but would revert to a different choice.

  • Lemdee@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Until we get ranked choice voting or similar the Green Party is a joke with zero chance of election. Voting for them only helps Republicans at this point in time.

    • roo@lemmy.one
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      1 year ago

      If less enthusiastic Republican voters have a chance to vote for a neutral party instead of voting for a shitshow, then how is it helping Republicans?!

      • Lemdee@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Lol it’s not Republicans voting for the green party, the green party has only ever siphoned votes from the Democratic candidates.

          • Lemdee@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            The GOP is attempting to destroy democracy, the Dems are not. The GOP are trying to subjugate me as a queer/trans person and POC as well, the Dems are not. The GOP are removing human rights from us, the Dems are not. The Dems are trying to pass green energy legislation, gun control laws, and more while the GOP are blocking it.

            Those are some pretty good god damn reasons.

              • AnonTwo@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                So you read all of that and you could only muster an emotional response.

                I think that says all that needs to be said. You’d rather enable our democracy to be destroyed (and you know, make it harder to do anything about fascism later) and vote in a way that will make you feel a little better about yourself while it goes into the void.

              • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Just trying to help:

                Neoliberalism was an attempt to save both the state and capitalism. Capitalism, however, cannot be rehabilitated. It will not save us from totalitarianism or state-sponsored genocide. Capital can absorb any product, service, or practice (including government practice) into itself and then reproduce itself. It is always primed for, always flirting with, the spectre of fascism. Source

              • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Yeah see how that turns out if the republicans win next election. They facilitate fascism by being the only alternative to actual fascist politicians. They certainly aren’t perfect, but seriously how do you think it plays out if enough morons like you vote for Putin apologist Stein? What do you think the end result will be?

      • AnonTwo@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        She’s a democrat choice not a republican choice.

        Source: voted for her in 2016

    • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      if i would vote for jill stein or cornel west (i mean, i have to be honest, it’s nice to have choices) or the libertarian or no candidate at all, how do any of those votes help republicans?

      the only vote that helps republicans is a vote for a republican.

  • awnery@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    ranked choice voting because i’d choose a chupacabra’s cloaca over trump. but jill stein is just here to talk and distract. she has a platform, she can use it, she doesn’t have to make shit worse.

    • Stalinwolf@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      Chupacabra’s cloaca.

      There are at least three truly cursed combinations of words out there in the world that most only see a handful of times throughout their lifespan. They are both forbidden and beautiful in their execution.

      • awnery@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        lmao i’m glad you had such a visceral response. all i did was say trump was less worthy of my vote than the evacuation port of a cryptid vampire coyote, and i think we could solve this kind of obvious dilemma with ranked choice voting

  • Telorand@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    Let’s see:

    • Fascism is calling from inside the house
    • All of the Republican candidates are fascists
    • The Supreme Court is stacked with Federalist Society-bred Christian Originalists.
    • Trump is likely going to be the Republican nominee

    And here’s Jill, like, “Mmm, yeah. Now’s a good time to try to split the vote.”

    • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      i think she’s thinking “now’s a good time for a green president” or maybe “now is a good time for an antiwar president” or “now is a good time for a woman president”. but what do i know? i’m just gonna vote for her.

      • Heresy_generator@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        now is a good time for an antiwar president

        Then maybe pick someone who doesn’t support Russia’s war of imperial conquest against Ukraine.

      • Telorand@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        I mean, in the primaries, I’ll vote for whomever I personally like. But when Biden inevitably wins the nomination, I’ll be voting for him, because it’s either him or fascism. That’s not a hard choice to make.

            • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              it actually has a meaning.

              it sure does. hey, do you think Biden should march into Congress and take the fasces off the wall, or just drape an American flag over them?

            • federatingIsTooHard@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              fascism is a reactionary ideology the arose in response to leftist ideology like libertarian socialism or communism. a fascist society is strictly stratified and forces every institution to serve the interests of the state. liberal democracies are breeding grounds for fascism. look at the war on drugs or the cias war on communism. then look at every opportunity Biden had to endorse them or hinder them over the last 50 years.

              • Telorand@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                That’s not what fascism is (or at least, it’s too broad of a definition). I think you’re responding in good faith, so:

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

                Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

                Being reactionary is a facet of Conservatism, and being on the political right itself, can have considerable overlap with fascism, but fascism itself need not be reactionary.

                But Biden supporting the war on drugs, for example, doesn’t make him a fascist. It makes him a supporter of a partial police state, sure, but that’s still not the same thing. Additionally, he’s made considerable effort to promote democracy, something a fascist wouldn’t do. And if he was a fascist, he would be a darling of the extreme right politicians and media, the “Democrat they always wished for.” Instead, they are doing everything they can to invent evidence to impeach him.

                Biden is a self-avowed Zionist, and part of old-guard-Democrats who support(ed) some awful policies. But there is no way you can honestly construe him as being cut from the same cloth as Hitler or Trump.

    • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Democrats have done nothing to earn our votes, they are not entitled to them. Democrats have enabled every one of your bullet points. ‘Splitting the vote’ is liberal myth.

      • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Yeah because why let facts get in the way of your alternative reality, tankie. I’m a very lefty guy and not a fan of the Dems. But splitting votes is real and a real strategy. Say something when she doesn’t focus only on battleground states and her funding is all grass roots.

        • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          If you use the word “tankie” unironically, you are not a leftist. Vaush would be proud.

          • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            There is a fucking chasm wider than the grand canyon between being left on the political spectrum and being a stalin apologist. And pretending that third parties in the US elections format don’t act as spoilers and that is a liberal myth is either (a) just being really fucking stupid or (b) some tankie bullshit made by a person living in lala land.

            See, I’m complex enough to acknowledge that the democrats kind of suck overall, having multiple parties would be better, but also accepting that given how the current system functions things can absolutely be worse if Trump wins again. Let us not forget that last time Stein implicitly supported Trump saying she like he won’t be able to get anything done but Hillary is efficient and will likely make things worse. Stein is fully capable of pulling just enough votes that Trump could win. And last time that ended Roe v Wade. This time, say buh bye to assistance for Ukraine. He wanted to fuck up NATO before. I’m sure that’d be real high priority now.

            The perfect is the enemy of the good. This is not how I’d like the world to be. But there is no magic wand and you can’t just pretend things are totally different and think that has an effect.

      • donuts@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Democrats have done nothing to earn our votes, they are not entitled to them

        Jill Stein and the Green Party have achieved literally nothing in their 22 years of existence.
        They haven’t elected anyone significant at any level of government, haven’t authored any significant legislation, and have done the bare minimum to shift political discourse. They also have to earn our votes, and so far they have done very little to earn mine.

        Even discounting the obvious statistical reality of the spoiler effect, is Jill Stein really the best candidate the Green Party has to offer? How on Earth can a party with so little to lose be so obviously out of fresh ideas already?

        Say what you will about the libertarian ideology, but at least I can give the Libertarian Party credit for putting a couple asses in seats at various levels of government. The Green Party, in comparison, has had no such success, and the fact that they’re going back to Jill Stein (a weak candidate who’s buddies with Putin and didn’t perform well) shows that they have very little intention of improving.

        ‘Splitting the vote’ is liberal myth.

        I’m sorry but you are absolutely delusional if you really believe this.

        Whether you like it or not, vote splitting and the spoiler effect are well-documented statistical realities based on the flaws of our current first-past-the-post voting systems. This is 100% a math problem, and it’s one that’s been written about a lot by many different people.

        If that bothers you (and it should) then I encourage you to read up on alternative, more democratic voting systems like Ranked-Choice (aka Instant Runoff) and STAR voting systems, which are generally more fair and far less susceptible to problems like spoiling and wasted votes.

        • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          democratic voting systems like Ranked-Choice

          You mean like the ones that the DNC is suing to keep off the 2024 ballots? Democrats have this crazy idea that even with rank choice voting we would check off any of your shitty candidates. This is not about compromise, rank choice voting is based on compromise. Trying to work within the systems that created the situation we are in, will never fix the situations that we are in. There is no reforming the party, there is no pushing them left after the election, there is no lesser evil. The entire system needs to be upended and then changed

      • gullible@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Don’t believe history, modern political theory, basic math, or your eyes, instead believe me! My area just managed to out a fascist through splitting the vote so it’s very actionable.

      • timicin@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        this and the fact biden was so un-apologetically banking on homophobic, sexist and classicist issues until well after it became politically convenient to change is exactly why i stopped voting democrat and i love that i’ve been able to convince other who i have a relationship with to stop as well.

        thanks for saying

        • donuts@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Maybe you should learn to string a sentence together before you try to “convince other” of anything.

          “thanks for saying”!

        • Telorand@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Ah, yes. Because as we all know, taking away from Democrats to vote for a third party will also diminish the Republican voting bloc. Oh wait…

          Your ability to choose is an illusion.

    • HuddaBudda@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Ouch, that is some of Russia’s top brass, what the hell is she doing in the middle of all that?

      I just went from… maybe… to nope in one picture.

  • Reptorian@lemmy.zip
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    1 year ago

    No thanks. I’ll vote who is likely to win based on mathematics with weighs on preference on top and those I prefer on the downballot. Do this enough time, and there will be a split between progressives and moderates when conservatives eventually become ineffective minority.

    • SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I cast a Jill Stein protest vote in 2012 because Obama had a lock on my state, and I felt like Obama and the Dems in general had strayed too far to the right. Obviously, Obama won my state and the presidency, which is what I actually wanted. I just felt like we could move the Dems to the left by showing them they were leaving votes on the table. That does not work. I can get into why, but the basics are that third parties only act as spoilers.

      In any case, Jill Stein is a terrible candidate on paper. All she does is mouth the dream set of policies a lot of us would love, but has no program to achieve them, she has no experience picking staff or running a large organization, she has all the charisma of a rotten banana, and she refused to throw down against anti-vax because it’d alienate half her base.

      I’m for a serious Green Party in the US - one that is actually oriented towards governing. The Greens internationally are a real party, not the party equivalent of Vermin Supreme.

      Honestly, most of the US agrees with the Greens on a lot of issues, and they could make enough of a big tent that a seriously (constructed and funded) Green Party could probably take multiple seats in the House, at the very least. They could caucus with the Dems, but try to pull things left. They’d work like the Squad, or Bernie and Warren. Between the coasts and the big cities, they could probably swing ten or more seats.

      But instead we get Jill, yet again. Honestly, I’d like to see an investigation of her Trump-like election challenging fundraising.

  • BarrierWithAshes@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Well it’s certainly better than Howie again. Cornel West should’ve stuck with the party. Him on greens would have had an unprecedented shot.