He was directly involved with putting together a team to create a false certificate that said he won the 2020 presidential election.
Saved you a click.
Nothing will come of it.
Saved you another click
Nothing except 90+ felony indictments? This dude was never charged with a crime before and this year he got hit with a ton of bricks. People like you would be watching the Nixon resignation saying “he got away with everything”.
Do you not understand the gravity of these charges? He’s almost guaranteed to be guilty of something, there’s so many options. Once he loses the election he’ll probably plead to whatever just to get house arrest and end the trials.
People like you would be watching the Nixon resignation saying “he got away with everything”.
I mean… yeah? You think his resignation and pardon WASN’T him getting away with everything?
I’m as hopeful as the next guy that the supreme court won’t just rule that nothing bad happened on Jan 6th and that Trump is allowed to be prosecuted, but 3 years on, it seems pretty reasonable to doubt it until it’s done.
I mean… yeah? You think his resignation and pardon WASN’T him getting away with everything?
I was a young person during Watergate and I can tell you personally that 1974 was a very different time. Nixon lost EVERYTHING that mattered to him personally (power, influence) and ended up living the rest of his life as a well-heeled recluse in and near his San Clemente property because no one wanted anything to do with him. He was so hated that later when he tried to get a New York apartment he kept getting turned down by co-op boards.
Even before Watergate, he was known as Tricky Dick, and when he ran for his second term people wore buttons that said “Dick Nixon before Nixon dicks YOU.” He was the pro-war asshole that kept sending good people to die in a war that no one understood, and then sent the National Guard in whenever campuses would erupt in protest (Reagan did this too, as governor of California). So when Watergate came around and it turned out Nixon had done all this other shit too, even his own party turned on him. Post resignation and pardon, he tried multiple times to return to public life, and they all fizzled out before they even started. He even fucked up his own Frost interview a few years later, basically admitting to crime on national tv.
It took about a year after he resigned for the war in Vietnam to officially end, and even when it was over no one wanted to see Nixon or hear his name. Everyone knew it had gone on as long as it had because of him, long before we all found out he and his boy Kissinger had sabotaged the peace talks. His name was shit.
Ford only pardoned him to protect the office of president itself, the Republican Party, and to ensure that the next ten years wouldn’t be wasted on courtroom theater. Nixon was no Donald Trump, with inexplicable charisma; he was just hated. And that never really changed. When he died in 1994 it was a great deal of nothing, the exact opposite of when Rosalynn Carter passed recently, or when Reagan or Bush Sr died. Even Barbara Bush’s funeral got more airplay. But when Nixon died, it was all two-sentence acknowledgments on tv, like “Richard Nixon, whose presidential career was cut short by the Watergate scandal and his subsequent resignation, has died. He was X years old,” or whatever. That was it. He did not even have a state funeral.
The only difference for Nixon between San Clemente and a jail, IMO, was the size of the cell.
So yeah, you can act like he lost nothing because he was not criminally prosecuted, but he lost everything that mattered to HIM, and he was by no means an ex-president like Clinton or Obama. He was just out there somewhere playing golf and being the butt of SNL jokes until he died. I think people would have voted for Charlie Manson over Nixon for president again. Given the war and the oil embargo and everything else that was going on at the time, I’ve always thought Ford was right to pardon him. Also, Ford gained nothing by the pardon; he served out the remainder of Nixon’s term and then Carter won, so that was that.
Trump is a different animal. At least in the end Nixon stayed out of the spotlight. Trump will either be grabbing the spotlight in any way he can, or be pushing daisies, just because that’s who he is.
Another thing you haven’t mentioned is that Nixon had destroyed McGovern in the 72 election. He won every state but MA!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_United_States_presidential_election
It was insane how far he fell. Watergate proved all his opponents right. And yes, his party turned on him. Half of Republican voters still liked him after his resignation but he literally couldn’t get another job anywhere.
I recommend going to the Nixon presidential library. They really try to whitewash the events but it literally stops listing things he did after Watergate. Other presidents didn’t even hang out with him.
Yeah, great catch about 72, thank you Kevon. I just ran out of space and brain cells, lol. Ford should have won easily in '76 in a landslide, but he didn’t win at all. Also, since you’ve been to the Nixon library, you know how he came out of poverty and put himself through law school, which was a huge thing to accomplish. He lost that law license too, after Watergate.
But what I was really hoping to convey, and did not, was that the days of 15-minute fame and 5-minute shame had not yet arrived. Just being outed as gay, for example, didn’t just kill your career, it got you glared at and mothers pulling their children away from you in the street (this happened to the original Ronald McDonald, IIRC) for years after the fact, and this kind of thing was life-destroying. Imagine if you fucked up something so badly and so publicly that anytime you left your house you were glared at, spat at, had people shout at you – and this went on for years. Because Nixon was never charged or sentenced, because there was no public reckoning, it never really ended for him personally.
At least at Club Fed he’d have been respected, and had a chance at post-prison life. I read Chuck Colson’s book; prison was very difficult for these men who had never known anything but comfort and deference, not a free ride at all, but it was still a FAR cry from gen pop. It might actually have been better for Nixon personally had he gone to prison with Colson and Liddy and the rest, but we’ll never know.
Oh, boo hoo, he didn’t have any friends and had to be well fed and lonesome in a mansion
He should have fucking hung, for prolonging the Vietnam war by five years and hundreds of thousands of bodies if for nothing else
Lol. Hanging people is for us regular folks, not people responsible for the death and suffering of millions.
He should have fucking hung, for prolonging the Vietnam war by five years and hundreds of thousands of bodies if for nothing else
I agree, but that wasn’t revealed until 20-some years after he died.
I hated Nixon. HATED. He was a complete and total asshole. He was the guy that made turning 18 a horrible date with destiny if your daddy wasn’t rich or famous (look into W’s Vietnam years, for example, or Trump’s for that matter). Remember that Creedence song Fortunate Son? There was a reason for it.
But I still think his pardon was the right thing to do for the country at the time, not because I give two shits about him rotting in a jail cell but because the entire world needed the US to be focused an something other than a disgraced president.
I’m betting that you’ve never sat in mile-long lines to fill your gas tank, or been of age in a war where your best friends, people you personally knew, maybe even you yourself in time were getting called up by the draft to go off to die for a war you didn’t believe in, that no one understood, where nothing at all was won and no bounty but bodies came home. It was a different time and place, without the influence of foreign paid propaganda to influence domestic opinion: judging it by today’s standards doesn’t get you anywhere but wrong.
Speaking of wrong, I do NOT think any kind of pardon, or special treatment, is appropriate for Trump or his cronies. Nixon tried to influence an election; Trump planned an entire coup. Nixon was happy enough with the blood of Asians and his own draftees; Trump won’t be happy with anything but total dictator for life no matter what it costs the world.
I can’t possibly disagree more. I don’t think you understand how restrictive an actual prison is. The man got to live out his days eating good food, going where he wanted, and doing what he wanted. We should all be so lucky to be able to do that at the cost of merely getting some dirty looks here and there.
Given the war and the oil embargo and everything else that was going on at the time
I don’t see how pardoning Nixon helped solve any of that or how they make the pardon any less of a travesty.
Ford gained nothing by the pardon
You know, other than the part where he only got to be president in the first place by making an agreement with Nixon that if he resigned, he’d get a pardon. He got to bail out his buddy and set an example for the rest of his Republican pals that breaking the law is fine, we’ll cover for you from the very top levels of government! No matter what the general public might have thought of it, the people within the party saw it as a huge service to their political machine.
Nixon got to live out his days comfortable, happy, and carefree. “He did not even have a state funeral.” Give me a break. By this logic, Trump doesn’t really need to be prosecuted! He already lost one election, and if he loses the next, he won’t have what’s REALLY important to him, and isn’t that punishment enough?
Of course not. Heinous crimes were committed against the integrity of our country’s ability to have democratic elections, and actual, real, legal conquences MUST follow, or the next asshole will comfortably push things even harder. It’s thanks in part to Nixon’s pardon that the rest of the republicans today are so happy to join hands around their lies about the election being stolen and the Jan 6 rioters being on a tour. They’d never have gotten here so easily without the precedent they have of covering for each other no matter what, no matter how serious, and no matter how high the office.
I can’t possibly disagree more. I don’t think you understand how restrictive an actual prison is.
None of the Nixon co-conspirators went to actual prison; they went to Club Fed.
If you want to know exactly how it was, no need to guess. Chuck Colson wrote a book about his experiences there.
You know, other than the part where he only got to be president in the first place by making an agreement with Nixon that if he resigned, he’d get a pardon.
He was already VP, and you have no idea what you’re talking about. Literally. You have zero idea of how widely these people were hated. Ford was an incumbent Republican and should have won re-election by a landslide. Instead, he did not win at all. And he had no choice but to run because without him the Republicans had no viable candidate at all.
When Nixon resigned, there were no charges against him, only against his co-conspirators, and there was zero guarantee that there ever would be. Nixon literally had NOTHING to give Ford except the promise to get out of town and at least not destroy what was left of the office and his party.
You should at least read more about what actually happened from people who were there. This conjecture about a pardon deal – that you can’t even back up with so much as a guess at a REAL quid pro quo and from which Ford got nothing but the retirement he was looking for anyway – was the product of later conspiracies, not current events in 1974.
And you have no idea how Ford even came to be VP, do you, or how that plays into this at all? Nope. Not a clue.
I don’t see how pardoning Nixon helped solve any of that or how they make the pardon any less of a travesty.
I know. You’re far too busy judging the 1970s by 21st century ideals.
Heinous crimes were committed against the integrity of our country’s ability to have democratic elections, and actual, real, legal conquences MUST follow, or the next asshole will comfortably push things even harder.
On this we completely agree. There is NO comparison between Nixon and Trump, and I made that clear. It’s a shame you had to ignore that and create a strawman to slay to get to this sentence, because I’d have agreed with you anyway.
And just so we’re clear: the most the Republican senators of August, 1974 ever did was withdraw their support for Nixon’s presidency in the face of an impeachment. Nixon resigned. There is NO guarantee whatsoever that any of them would have followed up with anything more, and to pretend so is just one more demonstration of you ignorance of history.
And Nixon getting away with everything, is also why we are where we are now too.
If the judges don’t fuck up the timeline and he loses, we’re probably ok for 4 more years (maybe longer if the trials scare off future fascist wannabes), but we need better voting rights, Supreme Court oversight and smarter voters before we can relax and not worry as much.
Nixon’s pardon was bullshit, but being forced to resign the presidency is not nothing either in the sense that he certainly did face real consequences. I’m with you that he should have faced greater consequences, but it’s simply not the case that he got away with it either. Getting away with everything would mean that he got to finish his term and retire as a respected former president. He didn’t.
Lol Nixon did get away with everything though? And the precedent is what has allowed Trump to trample on our laws.
No he didn’t. Getting away with everything would have meant finishing his second term and retiring as a respected former president. That didn’t happen. You can’t say that he didn’t face consequences.
“Consequences”
Our laws for the highest offices are strongly worded recommendations, not absolutes. They’re going after trump’s businesses (which he’s lost) and him raping people (which he also lost). It doesn’t help that the r’s are backing him as much as they can.
His followers don’t care. The people that would vote for him don’t care
And your point is? That doesn’t change the fact that there will still be consequences.
Only if he doesn’t win
You’re assuming both that he doesn’t win, and given the stakes involved, we can assume unheard of levels of cheating, corruption, and voting fraud, and you’re assuming that scotus doesn’t drag this out beyond the election.
If he wins and he hasn’t been found guilty at that point, then every investigation will be killed on day 1
The problem is the people that support him think it was all in the game to win and it’s okay. They don’t take into consideration that bypassing the law now leaves it open for democracy to crumble more. Anything to win now.
You can screech all about what he did, but if we ultimately aren’t going to stop him from running, then what’s the point of the circus?
Watch and learn how this is theatre and you have no actual say.
Maybe we should consider other ways to regain control for the benefit of the 99.99%
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Only if we get torches and pitchforks as well.
Your comment seems to imply that you think an armed uprising is the solution you’re suggesting. Is that the case?
Storm the Capitol! No… wait
Nice try FBI
Edit: it’s literally a meme
Not FBI, but if you think it’s wrong to be mindful about seditious comments on the internet in this day and age, I’d say you have a tenuous connection to reality.
Opposing traitor trump is the furthest thing from seditious there is. It’s the only thing any true patriot can do.
While I agree, unfortunately whoever is in charge gets to decide what’s “seditious” means. Right now we have the freedom (though many of us are probably on lists, which will be passed on to the next admin) to speak up against these fascists.
But if/when they take power? That’s when there could be a reckoning. I, personally, am not a fan of violent rhetoric, but I wouldn’t be surprised if my outspoken anti-fascist ideals would put me in the crosshairs when the fascist GOP truly gains control.
Personally? If it comes to Europe pre-WW2 levels of outright, blatant fascism spreading uncontrollably in the US, I would rather die standing up for what I believe in, than to use my white, middle class privilege and knowledge of how Evangelicals think to hide amongst them.
I’m pretty sure the FBI isn’t so stupid that they can’t tell whether or not someone is talking about armed uprising until someone else asks them for clarification.
Or is this one of those “you can’t arrest me if you tell me you’re a cop” urban legends?
Guilotines are a good method
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If the bad guys repeat the parts of history that made it bad, does the solution to that original problem become viable again? You’re citing the same precedent, I have no issues with it.
but of course.
if they’re going to keep forgetting and doing the same shit, the people need to keep remembering and doing the same shit.
Because if he loses, he’s going to face the consequences of his crimes. That has to matter. The rule of law has to matter.
I understand that, which is the point I am trying to make. He’s got a number of very serious criminal cases going against him, and so far has managed to weasle his way out of any serious consequence for all the shit he’s pulled.
I’m personally hoping for imprisonment, financially debilitating fines, and prohibitions from founding or serving in any kind of corporate or nonprofit organization*, and for that set of punishments to happen to every single scumbag who had the complete disregard for morality and good sense that was required to ever do a favor for Donald Trump. Do that sort of thing to the right 200 or so people in this country and maybe our politics can stop being so fucked up all the time.
*As an officer/broad member/decision-maker, if they end up with a job as a receptionist or custodian at the local YMCA that’s fine
I’m not defending the guy or saying I agree, but there is already precedent of a Presidential Candidate running from prison: Socialist candidate Eugene Debs.
Yeah, there’s nothing keeping him from running from prison, and that’s probably the way it should be, otherwise you could just jail your political opponents when you don’t want them to win elections. But this guy has participated in an organized coup attempt essentially with his fake electors crap, and trying to get military personnel to step in. If you recall, he also started replacing top level military personnel after he lost, with the presumed intent of keeping himself in office. This goes way beyond the, I’m just your political opponent, and I should be able to run from prison if I want to.
Hey man, I agree. I’m just talking about precedent. Given how things went during Trump’s tenure, I see nothing suggesting anything will be different for Trump despite the nature of his crimes.
Republicans in Michigan testified in a Lansing court that Donald Trump’s campaign was directly involved with putting together a team to create a false certificate that said he won the 2020 presidential election.
Former Michigan Republican Party Communications Director Tony Zammit said he thought people such as Trump lawyer Shawn Flynn had taken advantage of people who ended up signing the document.
“I thought they were going along with what the lawyers were telling them,” he said in a preliminary hearing Thursday, according to The Detroit News. Zammit said the meeting took place on December 14.
So senior Republican party officials in Michigan are just in the habit of signing their name to legal paperwork without asking what it means? If we can’t trust your signature how can we trust anything you say?
No, the Trump campaign was a bunch of criminals who came to you with the idea of doing a crime, but MI Republicans knew or should have known what was being asked of them. Everyone involved in this on the Trump campaign side and Republican party side belongs in prison.
Exactly. Every single person involved in this should be charged with treason.
Fraud, definitely.
“Treason” is a big stretch.
Treason is because of what the fraud related to
They’ve flipped Meadows. Some random fake elector giving up his handler in the campaign is helpful, but not exactly crucial.
Jack Smith has a mountain of evidence. He has everything. The cases just need to go to trial before the election.
I really hope the Supreme Court doesn’t rule on his criminal case.
I honestly don’t think they will. Because if they rule that Trump couldn’t commit any crimes while president, it also means that Biden can’t. Which means Biden can do whatever the hell he wants. I don’t think SCOTUS will go for that.
I would hope at least one justice would be smart enough to figure out that if presidents are immune from criminal prosecution for deeds while in office, the President could just kill a couple Supreme Court judges and install their own people.
Exactly. The person I’m talking to seems to think it’s a foregone conclusion that Trump will win the presidency, which is why they would rule in his favor. I do not think they believe it’s a foregone conclusion.
Or the VP could walk down the hall, shoot the president and then, as president, be immune from criminal prosecution. It’s absurd on its face.
She could also do the same thing if presidents are allowed to pardon themselves.
Yeah but they know Biden won’t do whatever he want in that way, and that Democrats will willingly hand over power to Trump if he legitimately wins (which he still could).
Then once that happens, no more elections.
I don’t think they do know that, nor do they want to risk it. Especially if Trump doesn’t win. And they know that’s a possibility.
What, in the history of the modern Democratic party, suggests that they would do anything besides peacefully hand over power? Liberals love to brag about the “peaceful transition of power” of whatever the fuck, and talk about how they’re able to pass the position onto the next person, even if they’re from the other party (which can be admirable, sure).
But Obama showed us that liberals will willingly hand the reigns over the outright fascists, and still brag about how civilized and enlightened they are, while the GOP ruins peoples’ lives left and right.
Biden won’t do shit if Trump wins. He’ll hand over power like liberals always do.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not even necessarily saying he shouldn’t. I’m just saying that the GOP knows he won’t.
You seem very fixated on Biden. You seem to think it’s a foregone conclusion that Trump will win and there will never be a Democrat in office again because he will win. I guarantee you that SCOTUS is not assuming he will win and they are not assuming Biden will be the last Democrat ever in office or that a Democrat would never do things Republicans really didn’t want to happen even though the Democrat had the legal right. Because those are not safe assumptions.
Biden will hand over power peacefully. The questions are whether he does that in 1 year, or 5 years, and who will receive the powers he currently wields.
Huh? Where did I suggest it was a foregone conclusion?
I think you’re naive if you think the Democrats would ever do anything meaningful in that situation. If that were the case, something would have been done years ago. They will not do such obviously unethical things (even if the potential outcome is good). That’s not how they have ever operated.
Also, what would they even do?
That only matters if Trump wins. He could, but I don’t think he will. I think we will look back at this time with disbelief that we were so worried about him winning.
it also means that Biden can’t.
It actually probably doesn’t mean that. In 2000, when the supreme court decided the election in George W. Bush’s favor, their ruling included language saying the decision was not to be used as a precedent for any other SP decision. There’s nothing stopping them from doing the same thing in this case.
Lmao the mental imagery of Joe Biden getting Mission Impossible’d into Clarence Thomas’ bedroom.
Unless they realize a DNC candidate won’t abuse the power in any meaningful way, making it solely a power wielded by conservatives. What’s Biden gonna do? Shoot Trump with a 9 and claim immunity? In our dreams.
Note they did not adjudicate in favor of Trump when he challenged the election.
What’s her face testified that she saw the crossfire hurricane folder go with meadows
Meadows has the folder. Or, more correctly, he had it.
He keeps saying that he did not mishandle classified info. I think Trump declassified the whole thing, specifically so Meadows could either destroy all copies outright, or destroy all but the one Trump sold to to Lavrov. Either way, he insures that nobody in the US will ever see it in its unredacted form.
I don’t think there’s paperwork of him declassifying it, bringing it up at this point probably wouldn’t help your case. Paperwork for that specific folder being declassified would prove that Meadows and Trump are traitors but their paperwork is in order? Meadows is working for Jack Smith now, so I’m going with the “who cares if there’s paperwork” side.
Of course there’s no paperwork, Trump believes he can unclassify things by merely stating it. But I think Meadows used that as cover to simply get rid of it.
In fact, it’s possible that the only reason he’s so chummy with Smith now is that he knows all the really bad, Rosenbergs-level stuff is irrevocably out of reach to Smith.
In fact, it’s possible that the only reason he’s so chummy with Smith now is that he knows all the really bad, Rosenbergs-level stuff is irrevocably out of reach to Smith.
Or they have so much on him that he had to fold. Cassidy Hutchinson isn’t really holding back what her boss did.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Republicans in Michigan testified in a Lansing court that Donald Trump’s campaign was directly involved with putting together a team to create a false certificate that said he won the 2020 presidential election.
Zammit’s testimony came in the preliminary hearings of six Republican electors charged with “intent to defraud” by Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel’s office.
The 16, all charged with criminal forgery, signed a document that falsely said Trump won Michigan and was filed to the National Archives and Congress.
Upon reviewing evidence and testimony, Judge Kristen Simmons will rule at the end of the hearings if there is enough to send the cases to jury trial.
During the hearings this week, former state GOP Chair Laura Cox testified she approved a document that Republican electors would cast votes for Trump if the election result was overturned.
Also in Michigan this week, the state Court of Appeals confirmed that it would not prevent Trump from appearing on the presidential ballot in 2024.
The original article contains 435 words, the summary contains 163 words. Saved 63%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Joe Biden won Michigan and its 16 electoral votes by a margin of just 2.78 percentage points. It was the seventh-closest state result in the election
And the DNC claims to insist on Biden because he’s the SAFEST choice? Ffs! 🤦
A politically motivated attack on the greatest president America has ever seen, better than Lincoln even, to uphold the principles of democracy!
You forgot your /s brother
You should probably edit your comment to include a /s tag if you are indeed being sarcastic.
Fuck that shit, it’s absolutely pathetic.
That would defeat the purpose of being sarcastic…
I don’t see how. Sarcasm is supposed to be obvious.
Then it’s subtle…
…Alright, whatever then. Don’t complain about your downvotes, as many of them might be due to confusion.
He isn’t complaining. It’s not the be-all and end-all for some people. I’d much rather be misunderstood than go ‘loooooool JK don’t downvote guyz!!!’ after a joke, which is exactly what ‘/s’ reads like.
There’s like 12% of American voters who would sign their name to that quote.
Putin approves this message!
May I ask what, in your opinion, makes him so great?
That poster was being sarcastic, and based on the downvote count a lot of people didn’t get it.
Given the prevalence of trolls and truly unhinged assholes on the internet these days, I think a /s tag is probably in order.
They were too well spoken to be a real trump supporter.
Dehumanizing your enemy is the first step towards underestimating them.
They might try behaving like humans instead of sheep, then
My shit will turn purple and smell like rainbow sherbet before any magat resembles a functioning, reasonable human.
Body language and inflections are nuances that are lost in text but contribute heavily to sarcasm.
Also, it’s been really difficult these last few years to determine the difference between a blatant joke and someone’s perceived reality, which is downright terrifying if you think about it too long.
You’ve basically summarized 4chan
Specious pseudoscience.
It’s not psuedoscience, it’s simply the observation that, as this thread shows, it can often be difficult to tell the difference between satire and honestly held opinions. I question your understanding of the word “psuedoscience,” if you think it applies to Poe’s Law.
That’s not what it means firstly, and secondly sociology is science, semiotics is science, and this waffle is masquerading as similar. Calling it a ‘law’ and wheeling it out as evidence contributes to that, convincing impressionable nerds that they need to backhand their jokes to avoid the dreaded downvote
The idea that someone would genuinely believe that isn’t very far fetched at all. If they’re being sarcastic, they’re not very good at it.
The comparison to Abraham Lincoln didn’t do it for you?
Anyway, I checked that poster’s comment history briefly and he doesn’t seem like a Trumper to me.
It’s Poe’s Law in action. In this age of unreality it can be almost impossible to tell the difference between satire and honestly held opinions.
Ain’t Lemmy great?
The direct evidence that implicates his campaign team and hopefully puts his ass in jail.
Who’s going after George Santos now? /s
Ahahahaha , fuckin good one
