Admittedly, I don’t know much about Brexit, but from what I have been exposed to, it seems like a decisively economical and political impairment that made travel and business with the rest of Europe more difficult and costly. Since it is so highly criticized as a terrible move, why doesn’t the UK just rejoin the EU?
Many good answers in this thread (and some stupid ones) but there are a few critical issues that the current British government will not accept.
First, currency. GB does not want to give up control over the pound, and their previous agreement did not force them to adopt the Euro. There are several other EU countries that have not yet adopted the Euro, but all except Denmark are obligated to switch over once certain criteria are met. GB might be able to negotiate that privilege again, but the EU is in a stronger bargaining position now.
Second, immigration. For as much as their country is suffering from their own strict immigration policies, the conservative government is still making political hay out of xenophobia and bigotry. Reopening the borders would be a tacit admission that their rhetoric was bullshit.
Third, taxes. Joining the EU means contributing to the EU, and while their nation may save money overall due to improved trade relations, the conservative government has made the cost of admission another talking point.
Basically, the current government would have to renegotiate readmittance to the EU, and they would get a worse deal than they had before. Doing so would make it obvious that leaving was a mistake, and their government could only be consisered an objective failure. So they won’t do it, even if it is the best option available.
Why didn’t Denmark have to switch to the Euro? I can see how back in the 70s the UK had enough bargaining power to keep the Pound, but Denmark?
Every country that joined the EU after the 1992 Maastricht treaty has to adopt the euro. Denmark signed that treaty, UK as well, but if they rejoin, they’d more than likely be treated as a new member.
I disagree - on paper sure they would, but at the end of the day the UK is the ≈2nd biggest economy in Europe (UK and France make up 2nd & 3rd and who is bigger changes every couple of years), unlike Georgia or Moldova or whoever else where their joining is barely noticeable.
That means that the EU is more likely to want the UK to join, vs smaller countries wanting to join the EU, although it would be mutually beneficial of course - the UK would likely increase the EU’s power a little more than the EU would increase the UK’s power, but saying that hides the fact that it’d probably be a 10+% increase in both cases.
Of course the EU could make an example of the UK if they were want to rejoin, but if they were to look at it objectively then they’d most likely reach the conclusion that the negatives of making the concessions they made before are far outweighed by the additional collective power of having the UK as a member.
The UK has proven itself to be a very fickle partner. If they want to join, we would need some serious proofs of good faith. Those proofs are called Euro and Schengen.
That’s a fair point, however it’s hard to see the EU making an example when it’s so in its interest not to… Chances are they’d end up getting some hard proofs in terms of legislation commiting the UK to the EU for a lengthy time period and maybe some other “commitments” which don’t boil down to anything but look firm to members and citizens (as loved by governments everywhere who want to look like they’re doing things while also not wanting to do those same things)
It’s not a “make an example” situation.
It’s a “fool me once” situation.
Also the nature and goal of the union have changed. Euro and Schengen are table stakes. It’s what the union is about.
I’d disagree - it hurts both the EU and the withdrawing nation to have a nation withdraw, so saying “if you withdraw you will end up coming back, but on terms more beneficial to us” is a good move for the EU to further decay eurosceptic movements around Europe. Letting places rejoin on the same terms would encourage eurosceptics as they’d say “we can always rejoin on the same terms”
it’s hard to see the EU making an example when it’s so in its interest not to…
Why would it not be in the interest of the EU to make an example? Poland and Hungary were (led by extremist right political parties) playing with the idea of leaving the EU, too. I think it has become mighty quiet on that front now that they have seen how much of a pain it is for the UK to empty a whole magazine into their own feet.
Same for France and Italy. Nobody is making loud noises about leaving the EU anymore.
The best outcome for the EU would be to drag their feet and wait a decade for readmittance. Right now companies are moving from the UK to the EU.
This is exactly the mentality that made Brexit come true and the post-Brexit agreements such a mess: “The EU needs the UK more than the other way round!”. Now look at it and tell me who needs whom more?
Neither truly needs the other - both are hurt by Brexit but they’re both getting along ok without the other (although brexit was far softer than people tend to realise - aside from a few very major things the UK is still de facto in a lot of EU institutions, and not including issues caused by Russian invasions)
I don’t think EU has any reason to “make an example” by being hard on UK, but they also have no reason to bend the rules to be soft on UK. It would be a really bad signal to send to other joining countries to let the ex-country in easier.
The longer the wait, the sweeter the deal - for the EU.
Yeah well, I’d like them to rejoin before they run the country further down. I’ve visited London several times and I’m shocked to see how it is noticeable falling behind already. If this keeps up, it won’t be great for EU to accept a “Mississippi” state. The sooner they rejoin the better it is for both UK and EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/03/britain-economy-society
I wholly agree, but as long as the political scene is like it is, it will be quite unlikely. I guess it will take at least a generation to get over this in the UK alone, and then it will be questionable still.
It seems the British (IMO the English in particular) need to eat humble pie and the way to make them is sadly economic ruin.
It’s no good letting in somebody who is that flaky and loud and proud about it.
UK would likely increase the EU’s power a little more than the EU would increase the UK’s power
This belongs on the side of a Brexit bus.
Making the same concessions and signal to every other country that you can just hop in and out on a whim? Uhhh I have a bridge to sell you if you really believe that.
It was in regards to the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, which was sort of the founding treaty of EU. In order to complete the transformation from European Communities to a European Union, all involved countries had to sign the treaty.
Some of the countries just couldn’t legally give off this amount of sovereignty without a domestic election. Denmark being one of them. So, even if it’s a small country, it had the same power as any other country to obstruct the founding of the entire union.
So when the election turned out a narrow “no”, it was a bit of wrench in the wheel. Denmark then negotiated having a few opt outs before they were able hold a new election which then gave a “yes”.
Well I’m looking at it from the other point of view, as in “you’re not allowed to join the EU unless you convert to the Euro”.
The EU didn’t exist at all back then. Today, the EU can make such a demand of a new joiner, say for instance the United Kingdom, because it’s the entire EU vs UK. In 1992, it was Voltron coming together, and they needed that left leg lion to keep him upright.
Old members had a deal there, like the UK did. New members need to join the Euro as part of their joining the EU package.
So Britain is in a sunk cost fallacy situation? If so who exactly in power is preventing us to rejoin?
Well, ostensibly it’s the voters. Vote for progressive candidates.
First of all, all the politicians that would look bad after propagating Brexit. Then those few select rich who gained a fortune from Britain’s misery. And those people who fell for their lies, and simply can’t admit that they had been had. This is the one side.
The other side is the EU. Brexit has cost the EU a fortune, and a lot of work. Re-admitting the UK would be put them in a bind to make sure - absolutely sure - that such a shit show will never, ever, happen again. Basically “Fool me once…” And they would have to convince all current EU members that this time, the UK really means to join and stay and take the whole EU stuff seriously, and not just like they did when the UK joined for the first time: To be in just to be able to easier weaken them.
For as much as their country is suffering from their own strict immigration policies, the conservative government is still making political hay out of xenophobia and bigotry.
The funny thing is that the UK now gets way more refugees than before, as France no longer sees the need to keep them back.
Not just that, all these trade deals we cut with other countries means visas for their citizens. Net immigration to the UK has tripled since Brexit from countries like India. I’m sure the racists and xenophobes are really happy with what they voted for.
Well at least all the people who enjoy Indian food will be happy.
Those other countries still accept the euro though right?
I think they do, but probably not guaranteed everywhere. Denmark might not, but I don’t know for sure. I know Czechia does close to the borders, but I haven’t been to the other countries myself to know.
It is up to the shops whether they want to accept euro or not (or any other currency), but the official currency is kroner. I know that some supermarkets (Netto) used to gladly take euro in exchange for a horrible exchange rate
The ones who fucked our country don’t want to admit they were wrong.
The party that’s been in charge of our country has been dismantling and selling everything worthwhile for over a decade, and the only viable alternative party seems to be running on “we don’t want to change anything major, but at least we’re not those guys” because they’re too scared to say anything after their last leader got torn apart constantly by the right-wing press.
I’m honestly worried about what we’ve become and how everything is just getting worse here. Nobody seems to have any hope for the future anymore, there are no positive things to look forward to, just a constant spiral of rising costs and declining health and public services.
The UK political cycle:
- Tories elected because they made people think Labour were bad with money
- Tories stay in power for a couple of decades
- Rich people get richer, public services get shitter, prices for everyone else get higher. They coast along on a tide of right-wing populism for awhile
- Eventually people catch on, Tories get voted out
- Labour need to spend a fortune getting things back on track. Might get two terms.
- Go to 1.
This is also the Canadian political cycle, it seems.
US as well!
This is why we desperately need PR to break the two party cycle.
Definitely.
I guess they are currently at step 2 or 3…
Steps 3, 4. If you have a look at the current polling.
The sad truth is it will need to get much worse until conservatives will admit there is a problem and let progressives solve it.
It has always been this way. You either live in a progressive, upwardly moving state with improving quality of life or you get stuck in a conservative, stagnant or downward trending place where people are more concerned with “others” than they are with doing anything productive as a society. As a species, we seem to slowly wobble back and forth between these extremes. It’s maddening.
It’s in our nature to destroy ourselves.
There are a lot of reasons, but I think it boils down to the people in charge do not want the embarrassement of crawling back to the EU.
It would be total ego destruction and that is simply untennable. This is what happens when the right gets enough power to make a change and then has to experience consequences.
Something something leopards and faces.
Not only that but the EU doesn’t want to make it seem like people can come and go as they please. So they will make serious demands for rejoining.
Exactly. UK will be adopting the Euro next time.
I forget what other significant concessions there were.
Schengen membership and no rebate are the 2 big ones aside from the euro iirc
If the EU are feeling particularly salty they might add the metric system but that’s not a current condition of membership afaik
They probably wouldn’t force schengen as we’re in a common travel area with Ireland who aren’t in Schengen so they’d have to force in on them too.
Possibly switch to driving on the right, that’d be good
That won’t happen because it would be an unreasonable requirement and for no real point.
It would require a ridiculous amount of road maintenance and sign changes and it would be basically burning money. It would be like asking the French to correctly signpost things, utterly unreasonable.
What do mean ?
Doesn’t “touts directions” tell you everything you need to know? /s
Shhh, it’d be fun
Yeah exactly, not to mention that the EU has called the UK “a trouble maker” in regards to the UK rejoining.
They weren’t wrong, were they?
I got the impression the modern British are an extreme manifestation of “truth hurts”.
This is the big one, admitting it was a mistake.
it’s like an unstable ex-girlfriend trying to get back together. and now she’s down on her luck with even less to offer.
UK just needs to suck a few dicks and we’re all good ;)
Idk about you but I’m not letting Boris anywhere near my dong.
I think you meant Mr. Sunak, which is only a marginal improvement.
There are a number of reasons but the biggest is, they simply can‘t.
There is no rejoining, you would have to apply for membership again. That process takes years even if every member is friendly towards you, which in case of the UK is not the case.
A rejoining is also currently not beneficial for the EU. So they have little incentive to allow it. The drain of firms towards the mainland is just starting and the EU needs that process completed and some time extra to flourish before they can think about talks about rejoining.
Another problem is the UK itself. While heavily divided, an absolute minority of voters are politically in line with where the EU is currently and where the EU is heading. So rejoining would be a hard sell in the UK.
Does the UK still meet the requirements of joining?
Unclear at the moment, there are so many requirements it is hard to keep track especially with the legal situation in the UK.
They basically demolished some mandatory EU laws like equal pay. But then again there is no protection in the UK system and you can just change every single law with a simple majority vote.
Some of the new trade deals could hinder them, since you can not bring all goods into the single market.
The member vote is the real roadblock for the UK, the basic requirements shouldn‘t be a problem with the current legal system of the UK.
We’re still one of the top ten world economies, of course we do.
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Ha, no way. You wish. The only thing England is top 10 at is smelling their own farts.
Currently ranked 6th. Your an idiot.
You’re*
Psh 6th at eating tea and crumpets maybe, you dumb limeys can’t even spell words right while insulting people.
Calm down Clapistani Chungus, and you also don’t eat tea, thats a drink, you spakker. I’m also still correct about the UK economy being sixth largest.
Wrong, California is 6th largest.
Britain had a highly favourable agreement with the EU that it negotiated decades ago. If it wanted to rejoin, it would do so without those privileges.
No more £ for you.
they can £ sand
The pound was a part of it, but there was always the UK’s veto which Margaret Thatcher negotiated, which also made the entire “BUT SOVEREIGNTY!!” thing a nonsense - now the UK is under the EU’s thumb, while before it could prevent the EU from doing anything that wasn’t in the UK’s best interests.
Despite her being associated with Euroskeptics I suspect even Thatcher would have been a Remainer.
Also a rebate, as one of the top 3 economies we should have paid a lot more in than we were.
Despite her being associated with Euroskeptics I suspect even Thatcher would have been a Remainer.
While that it is definitely true, her reasons would be that it is easier to control and weaken the EU from the inside than from the outside.
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I find it hard to believe that the EU would deny any and all membership benefits for the UK purely out of spite.
It is not out of spite. More like a “Fool me once” situation. Brexit has cost the EU a lot - not as bad as it is for the UK, but still. If the UK ever rejoins, they would have to make sure that such a shit show never ever happens again. If only to sell it to the EU members who all have to be convinced that the UK will be a good boy from that point on.
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Screw England, let’s just let Scotland and Wales join without them
Wales voted out
if we held the referendum again - no new voters, everyone votes exactly the same as they did before - remain would win simply because enough elderly leave voters have died since then that now it would swing the other way, so its likely is sentiment is not trending positive
Regions of Wales with a large English retiree population voted out.
U forgot abt northern ireland
That’s reunification with Eire, which is already in the EU.
I doubt u could reunify without mass deportation or genocide of half the population I think the best option is becoming our own country and joining the ru before reuniting. Sure no ones happy at first but it’s the only way to keep the peace.
The Ulster Unionists have basically given up on doing anything as a protest against the Tories back in Westminster, who have basically screwed them over to get their majority. Meanwhile, Sinn Fein have stopped their protest and started working again, and there does seem to be an appetite for a referendum on reunification. It’ll cause some people to lose their minds over it, but Eire has been the good guy on that side of the Irish Sea, and Westminster have all but abandoned them with the Northern Ireland Protocol. Whether Westminster allows such a referendum is another thing, if it does happen, it’ll be after Scotland get theirs, and hopefully along with Wales, they’ll get their say in the matter.
Extremely based opinion
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It would be smart, but their pride forbids it. Besides, when re-joining, they would start off like any other member, not as privileged as they were before thanks to Thatchers blackmailing. And they would have to ditch the pound in favor of the Euro, which would be the most painful thing.
But on the long run, they will have to come back. It is not a question of “if” but just “when” if they want to survive, and the longer they take, the more painful it will be.
Sure. There’s an application process; supposedly they can apply. It will take years, with a lot of conditions, and none of the previous exemption they had.
Pride.
Why would the EU accept that? GB needs to make its mind about that. It had so many specific benefits in the EU, and it still left because an idiot gambled the decision in a referendum.
The brexit could have meant the end of the EU. It’s not something you can come and go on a whim. So GB needs to pay for its stupid decision, because the stability of the EU depends on it, no country should ever get the idea that leaving the EU is inconsequential.
My question is if the EU would even want the country back. Would you want to deal with a country that flip-flops that hard?
IMO the flip-flop would basically kill any bargaining capacity from the UK. Before it was * but what if we leave, we’re stronger together and you have more to loose by letting us leave than by giving us a small concession* now it’ll be Why do you want any special concession ? You’re a new member like any other and have to abide by the same rules
IMO, it would show the power and value of the EU. The UK would be far more willing to admit that they shouldn’t have left if they can get back in. The EU stands to gain from such a prominent country (and one that can say so from experience) undeniably admitting that it’s better to be in the EU than to leave. That’s some stellar advertising of the economic value of the EU.
Though they definitely shouldn’t bend every rule to let them back in. The pound should be replaced by the euro. It’s dumb that the UK got that exception.
For sure. But UK would be admitted as a “regular” member, without many of the exemptions UK had before. I can imagine they might get the currency exemption this time around as well, though.
They made their decision to leave, now they have to deal with the consequences of that decision.
Try to remember that almost half of us did not vote to leave in the first place and knew it was a mistake. The Brexit vote was won on the tiniest of margins mainly due to a criminal misinformation campaign.
There was no mandate in that vote for the UK leaving the single market - something that those liars campaigning for Brexit said that we would never do. I firmly believe that all of the Brexit campaigners should be rotting in prison for the incalculable damage they did to our nation. Many people were tricked into voting against their best interests because they were told that leaving the EU would mean more money for the NHS, or it would protect their daughters from all the Turkish rapists joining the EU next week, or all the other total fucking nonsense the criminal liars told them through Facebook.
That’s exactly the problem : you need to fix your country before you can join again. That’s how democracy works.
The brexit is a tragedy, and I feel for those who didn’t want to leave the EU. But it’s done. Maybe your kids will be able to see the return of the GB into the EU.
The thing is your electorate let itself be manipulated like that and as you said the perpetrators are still very much at large. It follows they will manipulate the electorate again and there’s no reason to believe the same demographic won’t easily fall for new lies. (Unless they died off.)
This sucks for the Brits who knew better but it also means the EU would let an unreliable partner back in if nothing changed. It seems the pro Brexit crowd will need to learn the hard way that no really you were lied to and you still have to bear the consequences of your own actions (vote).
Being lied to isn’t an excuse to accept racist fearmongering and plainly suicidal economic reasoning. Nor is it an excuse for the project fear slander that happened at the time. They were lied to and were also told the truth. And you who voted to stay also need to learn that your vote doesn’t abdicate Britain either. You’re in this together.
Oh, I totally agree with how it happened, the point is, it happened, and a good deal of the people who made it happen , are still in power. The problem is no onw will do anything about it. As you say, almost half didn’t vote for it, but over half did, and there-in lies the problem. “they were lied to” Yeah, but they voted based on those lies.
You only needed a slim 50% to split? Not like a 2/3rds majority?
Yup. And the rerendum wasn’t even legally binding.
The whole thing still boggles my mind, it was something like 52/48 on a non-binding vote, and everyone is just like, “Ok, I guess we’ve got to do it then,” even though it seemed to be the most obviously stupid decision in the world. There’s alot I like about Britain’s system of government, but that such a major decision hinged on the barest of margins is just weird, at least in the US we’ve got huge hurdles before we can change our Constitution (though that too can cause problems trying to get some things fixed).
The 2000s have just been filled with so many epic, unforced face-plants across countries and companies, it’s like we’re living in the Age of Idiocy. Either that or Russia had its tendrils everywhere and somehow convinced a great number of people to make the stupidest decisions ever, to which they took advantage of that… by doing their own epic face-plant.
I think humans tended to do such epic face plants for a lot longer. But these days every idiot and their dog has a smartphone to record everything and an internet connection to share it to the world. You look a lot more silly with your epic face plant if it’s captured in 4K and broadcast to the world.
Random side note: if you want to hear about a rather epic historical face plant there’s a good video on the Erfurt latrine disaster on YouTube.
It’s not an on-off relationship.
Assuming the UK could get itself together and find the political willpower to do so…it still won’t be easy. The EU has to agree to it, and it would require all members of the EU approving them rejoining.
As I recall, the EU warned them that if they left it would be very challenging for them to rejoin. The idea was to discourage them from leaving the EU in the first place. But they did. And now they have to live with the consequences.
I really would like to see reactions from France if Britain makes moves to rejoin.
