Yeah, both sides amiright?
Well, to all the folks arguing with me on how voting for Harris was bad because of Gaza: CONGRATULATIONS! You REALLY made a point there. The Palestinians had a chance under Harris. Instead of voting for a chance for the Palestinians, you did nothing or voted for genocide. You did it from the other side of the world, where you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
“A vOTe fOR hARriS iS a VoTE FoR gENociDe”
Fucking morons
“BlUe MaGa”
It’s pretty obvious that the Gaza protesters were given disproportionate media coverage because Russia paid for it to be pushed as a wedge issue.
Even this article is just anti leftist propaganda.
The actual amount of people that protest voted was a non factor this election. The exact same ratios of Muslims, Jews, and young people voter the same this time as in 2020.
The turnout of Democratic voters was lower than it should have been. There are too many variables at play to make any conclusion, but it’s safe to assume that the number of voters who abstained due to the issue was more than zero.
I really want to see a credible analysis showing how many of those non-votes were due to abstentions versus voter-suppression mesaures such as electoral-roll purges, overcrowded polling stations, fake challenges at the polls, etc.
Most of it was white and hispanic older men staying home.
Those were the largest demographic shifts.
We live in a bigoted country that can not vote for a woman
It was pretty obvious most Americans don’t care about Gaza, and didn’t let it influence their voting.
I’ve seen polling prior to the election that asked people about their most important issues when voting.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/651719/economy-important-issue-2024-presidential-vote.aspx
The Republican voter’s top issues were the economy, immigration, terrorism/nation security, crime and taxes.
Meanwhile, the Democrat top issues were US democracy, the supreme court, abortion, healthcare and education.
Basically, foreign policy was a non issue for voters. Gaza did not factor into most voter’s decisions at all. And of course it doesn’t. When you’re worried about putting food on the table, you can’t afford rent, your bodily autonomy is at stake and your country is going to shit… you’d be silly to vote based on Gaza. Because that’s directly voting against your own interests. Gaza should not have been a large talking point or even at all.
I think the reason a lot of Democrats stayed home was basically candidate fatigue. They just didn’t feel like voting for a candidate so boring and faceless. And she didn’t have nearly enough time to turn things around. Why bother voting when democratic leadership clearly isn’t taking voters and their actual issues seriously?
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
based on what data? You’re just making stuff up.
based on them trying to feel better about voting for genocide and losing. they got the worst of both worlds instead of doing the right thing and gathering support for a better party
The mighty democratic party ladies and gents, blaming their epic across-the-entire government, across every demographic loss on a tiny minority of voters they explicitely said they’d bomb —instead of owning the fact that they are out of touch with all of their voters who arent rich people.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
Doubtful: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/15/biden-israel-gaza-palestine
One mention of Harris to say she’s not taking over for Biden
There is no reason to think Harris would’ve been any different than Biden on this issue. She repeatedly said she was in agreement with Biden on this, i don’t care if it was during an election people need more to go on than the hope that she really feels different inside
That’s cool because Trump stance was even more extreme, but since he’s saying insane things every minute, no one batted an eye. But Harris had to be perfect. How do you even reconcile what you say with the reality you have in front of you.
Trump said in no uncertain terms that he would back Israel, he’s confirming it today and you still spout that “both sides” inane shit.
What more do you need to admit that your point is bullshit.
With Harris, there was a sliver of hope that there could be change and with Trump it was sure that Israel would do whatever it wanted. You look at that shitty situation all around, and you still think Harris was the worst choice versus the openly fascist dictator?
There is no sane universe where you can defend that point of view, yet here we are.
Palestine is fucked, good luck Ukraine, and fuck any American that isn’t white, Christian and straight I guess. But hey, both sides, right?
Comments deleted by moderator: who the fuck are we moderating for? This isn’t reddit where we have to mind our Ps and Qs to make a bunch of advertisers happy. Why the fuck are we still moderating like we’re beholden to advertiser-friendliness?
Can we not use Fox News, please? They legally argued in court they are strictly entertainment and no reasonable person would believe them. In other words, they are literal propaganda.
But yeah, I hope the smug voters that sat this election out are happy…
That’s a misrepresentation of what they said. I hate Fox News too, but they argued them being called Fox News doesn’t make them exclusively a news company. Most of what they provide on their TV network is entertainment. Written Fox News is actually not the worst thing ever, though still conservative and far from my preference. I also think they still have an hour dedicated to news on the TV network, which is probably worse than having none because it gives cover for the rest of the garbage.
So, do you think that, in this case, the reporting is inaccurate? Or do you just wish they linked a non-Fox version of the same story?
You should default to assuming anything Fox says is untrue without a second source to verify. Because legally they can just say whatever they want and aren’t beholden to any type of journalistic standards because they aren’t news.
They have no more credibility than a random social media user.
Sure, okay, look at the source with skepticism - I certainly do. It just doesn’t make sense to not engage critically with the source. And, in this case, this story seems to be completely factual. Trump does intend to expand arms supply to Israel and ease restrictions. So, disbelieving the story in this case would not have brought you to the correct conclusion.
I guess “default to assuming it’s untrue” wasn’t how I should’ve put it.
If they told me the sky was blue, I wouldn’t say they’re wrong but I’d probably still look up just to be sure.
The Democrats aren’t in power anymore, Palestine is saved! /s
Those protest votes are certainly being heard loud and clear by every Palestinian right now!
It’s not genocide. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race.
–JD Vance, probably.
Despite what Biden said, there never were any restrictions. Israel gave basically had a free for all since the beginning. White phosphorus was used right at the beginning and no consequences happened. They bombed hospital and nothing happened. They killed aid workers and nothing happened. Unless trump sends American troops in then nothing changes, Israel is going to do what it was always going to do.
Why are americans so fuckin dumb? Instead of pointing their fingers at millions of trump voters, they are pointing it at people with empathy for having anti-genocider stance.
It feels like they are just interested in finding a scapegoat to blame rather than asking the real questions, why did so many people voted for trump? Did kamala, despite having more funding, failed to convey her plan? What happened and why it happened and how can it be avoided?
They’re angry and looking for an easy scapegoat. Even though it’s obviously the wrong one. We all knew Trump was worse, which is why Mehdi Hasan and many others were pleading with Biden to please change course because he was destroying his re-election by his own hand. Biden overruled his advisors and the state department and pressed forward on an unpopular policy in hopes he could get republicans to vote for him and it failed. He undermined his own foreign policy and ruined his own career.
Thanks, Uncommitted Assholes.
Wasn’t the uncommitted movement some 100,000 people strong?
Didn’t Harris lose by millions?
How would have the uncommitteds saved the election if their numbers represented a fraction of what Democrats needed?
Could a more likely explanation of this deplorable outcome be that Democrats did this to themselves by not rallying up their base enough to bring more people out to vote?
Stop blaming the American people.
Almost 100,000 in Michigan alone likely flipped the swing state.
Looks like Harris did lose by about 79,000 votes in Michigan.
Comparatively, about 44,500 went to Stein.
We don’t ultimately know how the uncommitted movement voted. If they were a monolith throughout, we’d expect 100k for Stein. If some abstained and some voted for Harris or Trump, that would’ve split the movement.
If all of Stein’s voters went to Harris, however, that wouldn’t have changed the outcome. Harris would have still been short ~34,400. So if you wanted to make the argument that the uncommitted movement was a voting block, then the entire ~44k block voting for Harris wouldn’t have changed the outcome.
Overall I don’t see Michigan outcomes changing my argument. If Dems were more persuasive, even if they lied about Gaza, they could have sweeped the nation. And even if the uncommitteds chose the lesser of two evils, Kamala still lost all other swing states. You can’t chock the outcomes of those states up to the uncommitteds, because the largest organizational presence was in Michigan.
I voted Uncommitted in the primary so that Biden and the Democrats would get a count of how many people took the issue seriously. Primaries are a great place for message votes.
I also donated, volunteered, and voted for the Biden and then Harris campaigns, and didn’t hold back any support in public. I had no illusions about how bad it would (now will) be with Trump in the Whitehouse.
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
They think they get to wipe their hands of it because they “didn’t participate”, refusing to concede that said choice still counts as their participation. Through ignorance, cruelty, and/or privilege, they’ll blame everyone else for the state of the world while refusing to do their part.
Howard Zinn - you can’t be neutral on a moving train. The Enlightened Centrists ™ always look like suuuuuch dipshits when they talk about “both sides”.
“bUt i VoTeD iNdEpEnDaNt”
Dirtier than Trump supporters
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
Yes.
Trump is an irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. That fact does not make me wish that I had voted for a different irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. The fact that Trump is horrible was never in dispute.
So Harris = Trump? Equal equal?
I’ll be there devil’s advocate here and say that this whole shit show started under Biden and Harris
Oh, I didn’t say that. Not all irredeemably evil genocidal psychopaths who deserve eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell are exactly as bad.
But it means your vote could have helped bring the victory to someone less genocidal.
I know Harris is not a pro-Palestine person, but she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters. At the very least she doesn’t support the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, unlike Trump, who couldn’t give less of a shit about Palestinians and is happy if Israel leveled them down
P.S. I don’t want to make you feel guilty. The political system the US people live in is a shit. I’m just disappointed that maybe she could have had a chance of winning if people didn’t abstain.
she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters.
No, she absolutely isn’t.
Politicians are never more receptive to voters’ concerns than just before an election. Once they have people’s votes, they tend to shift further in the direction of interests groups and the establishment. Like, for example, on the campaign trail, Obama promised to end mass surveillance and protect whistleblowers, but once he was in office, he did the opposite. Harris on the campaign trail, after the widespread campus protests, was the most pro-Palestine she would ever be, which is to say not even the slightest bit and completely unconditionally supportive of material aid to Israel.
It used to be that politicians would promise to do good things on the campaign trail, and then usually not follow through. But now they don’t even have to promise anything, because people will just project whatever views and values they hold onto whichever candidate they like regardless of anything they say or do.
Harris and Biden are unconditionally supportive of everything Israel does. Short of direct involvement of the US military, it’s not really possible for Trump to be meaningfully worse than that.
Harris and Biden are unconditionally supportive of everything Israel does. Short of direct involvement of the US military, it’s not really possible for Trump to be meaningfully worse than that.
Remind me of this genocide-downplaying take in three months or so, please.
Okay I understand your point. Unfortunately Palestinians are not the only targeted ones. We have
- LGBTQ people
- Atheists and non-Christians
- Leftists and pro-democracy people. Non-fascists in general
- Scientists
- Ukrainians
- Refugees and immigrants
Harris said and has showed to support them. Trump vowed to destroy all of them.
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
There is a certain set of dumbasses that will say this kind of thing no matter what.
It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. Those votes were entirely up for grabs. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with having the most lethal Military and unwaivering support for Israel a year into this genocide. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. If they took this election seriously, they would have been going after those votes. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
Quotes
Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally. Support for this genocide is bipartisan.
A Gaza ceasefire would be impossible without Netanyahu agreeing to it. So that 6% swing’s based on a hypothetical that’d never happen, especially when Netanyahu was doing everything he could to help Trump. And, if Trump were the candidate of peace, why would that butcher do that?
Guess what then
Lie to the American people.
Lie like Obama did! And lie well. Tell the biggest lie. Because clearly that worked for Trump!
Democrats stared down the barrel of fascism this election, and didn’t even think to come off their high horse to score a victory.
Can you also make a graph on how many luxury hotels Trump is going to build in Gaza after the rubble is cleared, thanks 👍
Do you think I’ve ever supported Trump or something when I’ve repeatedly called out his Hitlarian and Fascist rhetoric and policies?
Yes, because you helped him win.
By voting for Harris? By telling others to also vote for Harris even if anti-genocide is their single issue? By voicing my concern that the campaigns strategy of ignoring all the uncommitted voters in swing states and failing to break from Biden on one of his most unpopular positions was risking losing the election? How exactly did I help Trump win?
By promoting the lies that either Biden or Harris can single handedly stop the genocide, and that they’ve made no attempt to do so.
If we just ended our alliance with Israel, do you know what they would do next? They would likely ally themselves with Russia instead.
That would give Russia control over a port that facilitates a huge portion of commerce in the middle east. It would also give them control of a lot of tech companies, including Intel’s massive R&D campus, and they would have access to the iron dome, which would be a pretty big intelligence leak. Israel also has an extremely important spy network that western countries rely on, and suddenly they would start serving Russia instead.
It would also allow the rest of the middle east to “escape containment”, so to speak. Particularly Iran. As soon as that happens, where do you think their missiles will go next?
Oh, and the genocide of Palestinians would still continue.
Geopolitics is complicated, and Biden was walking a tightrope. He was at least placing limits on how US weapons could be used, and trying to negotiate a ceasefire. Trump will scrap all of that and encourage Israel to kill everyone in the region.
But you didn’t care about any of that. Your moral outrage prevented you from trying to figure out why things are the way they are, and you joined the choir of people who were trying to prevent anyone from voting for Harris. A choir that mostly consisted of Trump supporters who were just trying to promote anything that might hurt Harris’s chances of winning.
I know this is a disgusting thought but, assuming there are ever free elections in the United States again, Gaza won’t be an issue in 2028. Palestine will just be a memory.
They’ll just move on to Iran
It’s already a memory for plenty. All the cool kids are upset over a squirrel killed in New York
The outrage is so selective. Democrats kill peanut, infringing on some guys right to have wild animals but you don’t hear a peep about the GOP sheriff who arrested a lady because her kid walked to the store. She is facing a year in prison.
I hear about that woman getting jail time for that on the regular, I don’t know what you are talking about, I see it one headlines from mainstream sources too.
Also, people can be mad about multiple things at once
I’m not talking about the news, I’m talking about the people who manufacture outrage about peanut being silent about the blatant trampling of this families liberties because it doesn’t advance a narrative that it’s all the democrats fault.
We operate in different circles then. I haven’t seen the squirrel in days now, and I am still getting people discussing the woman getting arrested.
Time for the 2nd stage of FAaFO for all those that fucked around.
No both sides were not equally bad choices for trying to stop the slaughter of non-combatants.
Non-combatants have been getting slaughtered none stop for over a year now with the help of the Biden/Harris admin.
If they were the better choice they could have demonstrated that, with actions not words.
Bidens 30 day deadline came and went and nothing changed because Biden doesn’t care about innocent life and the dem leadership are all in the pocket of aipac https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/11/biden-israel-palestine-gaza-aid-30-day-warnings-blinken-toothless/
Not going to debate what Biden (since as VP Harris has no actual power to do anything) has done or not done nor your opinions of what he’s done or not done. I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true. What he’s done to express that humanity given geopolitical realities is the real issue.
But anyone who actually thinks Trump cares at all about innocent life, or anyone’s life but his own, or cares about the legacy he leaves behind may find themselves rethinking that opinion in the coming year.
Now that the election is over, I truly do hope something good gets done. We of course won’t know what Harris could have accomplished, but we’ll certainly know if Trump tries and if he succeeds. Keeping fingers crossed.
ETA: I’ll just drop this here https://www.reuters.com/world/us/muslims-who-voted-trump-upset-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-picks-2024-11-15/
I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true.
How would you have any read on his personal feelings at all? And why would you care that they’re being besmirched? His actions are what matter to the world and the only path by which any of us has to judge him.
You’re right I have no more intimate knowledge of his internal feelings than you do. I have however seen enough humanity in him to believe he has more empathy than Trump who has a very well documented history of narcissism bordering on psychopathy.
As for my “care” of his humanity being besmirched, I don’t actually. My issue was with your questionable assertion that he doesn’t care and the implication that maybe (but maybe not) you actually think Trump cares more.
As for his actions as the president of the united states, who has the full weight of international geopolitics, national politics, and an election to consider, I’d say the job is no where near as simple as you’d like it to seem and as much as I hate (or don’t hate but am resigned) to admit it, there is a limit to what the United States can actually do to make a difference in Gaza that might not have other undesirable results.
Democrats: Vote for us, we care about human rights and will manage out genocide more humanely.
Democrats: Haha! You didn’t vote for us and now the genocide we started will get worse.
Really shows how much the Democrats care about human rights and genocide. I really regret not voting for them now.
How thick are you?
Given that Biden was too much of a coward to enforce any restrictions, nothing will really change.
Oh yeah? You tell that to those Palestinians displaced permanently from their homes as Netanyahu annexes Gaza and the West Bank.
The Far Left Palestinian protesters did this with their bullshit Genocide Joe nonsense.
💯
nothing will really change.
you idiots have doomed gaza.
Because Gaza’s been doing so well right now.
gonna be night and day compared to what bibi and trumpzo the clowno come up with.
60% of the buildings in Gaza have already been destroyed, with Biden’s unconditional support. Stop doing genocide denial and pretending that your preferred psychopaths aren’t bathing themselves in the blood of Palestinian children every night.
sure thing clown
Nothing clownish about me acknowledging the objective reality of an active genocide which you deny being conducted by the “people” you support.
this is the hilarious thing. I don’t support the israelis and have been very critical.
you don’t care, because I’m also a realist, and know that biden bragging about hindering bibi wouldn’t have helped anything.
you don’t really care about gaza, if you did you’d have half a fucking brain. at the end of the day, both sides want to fight for their invisible friends more than they want peace, and it’s fucked, but there’s shit all I can do from here.
I didn’t invade israel kidnap hundreds and murder thousands. I didn’t sell israel twice like the brits.
take your horseshit elsewhere.
No, you have doomed Gaza. I don’t mean “you” as a group. I mean you personally.
Did you vote Harris?
I voted for Chase Oliver because of his charming smile.
Edit: Just joking, I’m not a US citizen, hence I can’t vote in the US presidential election.
No, you have doomed Gaza. I don’t mean “you” as a group. I mean you personally.
sure thing sparky. probably a russian bot
What restrictions?
Currently, U.S. restrictions include an embargo on a certain weapons shipment and limitations on various combat-related equipment,
Read the article?
Implying that answers any questions?
only the ones that were asked
It really doesn’t. Especially when Biden already saying they aren’t continuing any…
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-aid-entering-israel-us-deadline-rcna176737
Where my “Democrats are evil genocide people” posters now?
Right here. Republicans being worse doesn’t excuse selling weapons for an ongoing genocide. Democrats never should have done that. And it got you nothing. You supported genocide for nothing.
I think a lot of the hostility here is because centrists are mad that trump is going to be able to take credit for the complete implementation of their only policy.
the blue maga can’t see anything with their tongue so up dnc cronies.
Are you asking if we still think Biden and Harris are complicit in the ongoing genocide? Yeah, yeah we do. Shit is bad right now, long before Trump takes office.
I’m right here. Democrats are still evil for supporting a genocide, and your “lesser of two evils” logic continues to make us more evil.
What do you think of the 30 days the Democrats gave Israel to improve the humanitarian situation by measurable metrics? Israel failed every metric, but the Democratic administration ignores the results and continues to ship weapons to the genocidal regime.
What do you think of the dozens of international doctors who have been to Gaza saying they saw children with single gunshot wounds to the head almost everyday? Reports are widespread that israeli snipers are intentionally killing 100s of children each month.
What do think of Israels recent use of small arms drones? After an American/Israeli bomb destroys a civilian building, a dozen small drones swarm the area. These drones fire small cube-shaped projectiles with the force to pierce skin and break bones, using AI to target any human in the designated area. They are deadly accurate and fast, firing 3 at the head, 3 at the chest, and 3 at the groin. Doctors say these projectiles are especially hard to fish out of the bodies of the child victims as they rarely exit the body, instead they bounce around causing more internal damage.
Suggesting that the people upset about an ongoing genocide are just going to forget about it due to electoral politics is disgusting, and you should feel ashamed.
Hear hear.
People ignore that Biden’s policy was simply indefensible. He fought his own party, he fought his advisors and the media and he STILL lost the election. There’s no longer a need to carry water for him.
what is that website? new to lemmy.
It’s Hexbear, the instance I have my main account on. It’s an explicitly leftist (anarchist, communist) instance that has a unique history in the lemmyverse as having started and developed for several years on its own. As a consequence it has a completely different vibe from the rest of this place. For one thing its userbase is >60% lgbt+. Check it out!
ah interesting. good to know. thank!
It still applies? Just because the Republicans are exponentially worse doesn’t mean the democrats weren’t supporting genocide too.
No, it doesn’t apply at all.
The point of the anti-Dem posts was to get people to not vote Dem when objectively allowing a trump win was worse.
You’re suggesting actively supporting worse is better.
That’s fucked up.
Russians don’t need to make them anymore.
Democrats should never have supported genocide. Am I a Russian?
I wonder if any of you are ever going to realize you’re just doing reskinned Protocols of the Elders of Zion antisemitism with this
The Elders Of Zion is a bullshit made up hoax book for propaganda purposes. Unless you’re referencing it as such, it is not a work to be cited in any serious context.
I’m begging you to learn adult level reading comprehension.
Unless you’re referencing it as such
They very obviously are. How could you possibly read their comment otherwise?
Hey OP can you list the restrictions currently in place?
They are mentioned in the article, if we can call it that. But no specifics:
Currently, U.S. restrictions include an embargo on a certain weapons shipment and limitations on various combat-related equipment, even if they do not involve explosive ordnance.
What does this entail, nukes?
The 2000 pound bombs are still flowing. I can’t think of a single restriction.
Did anyone tell the Palestinians that this would have been the same and to not worry? We had brave, brave people who sat on their hands and did nothing in their name, so I hope they’re grateful for their “sacrifice.”
You could literally ask them yourself. They quite explicitly refused to vote for you and your genocidal racist candidate.
You brave, brave keyboard warrior who would get their ass beat if you said any of this in person
They were braver than that, friend! They took to the internet in droves, and in every comment thread they showed everyone how principled they were, commenting “I ReFUsE to VoTE 4 GENOCIDE!!!”, spreading their message to either vote 3rd party or don’t vote at all. They worked hard AF to spread their apathy far and wide!
This type of person doesn’t give a fuck about actual Palestinians. It’s just a way to make themselves seem virtuos and ideologically pure.
